Ep. 204: Cey Adams on Designing and Defining Hip-Hop Visual Culture

Nov 28

Legendary visual artist Cey Adams grew up in NYC immersed in the excitement and danger of graffiti, embellishing buildings and tagging “Cey City” on subway cars. From there, he began selling in galleries along with contemporaries Jean-Michel Basquiat and Keith Haring, and designing merch, logos and singles for Run DMC, Beastie Boys, and LL Cool J. As founding Creative Director of Def Jam he designed cover art for Slick Rick, Public Enemy, Notorious B.I.G., Mary J. Blige, etc., toured with his good friends the Beastie Boys, and asked Method Man for parenting advice - all in a day at the office. 40+ years into his prolific career as a celebrated commercial and fine artist, he’s recognized as a defining visionary of hip-hop culture.

Learn more about Cey on Instagram and on his website.

Amy Devers: Hi everyone, I’m Amy Devers and this is Clever. Today I’m talking to Cey Adams. To be honest, it’s going to be hard for me to do justice in explaining just how important Cey Adams is in the creation of hip hop visual culture, and by extension global contemporary culture. He is, no exaggeration, one of the primary architects, visionaries and makers who translated the essence, vibe and ethos of a burgeoning movement into the visual language that has become the societal shorthand for hip hop. In fact, Cey’s work is so deeply embedded in our cultural consciousness that it’s revelatory to trace it back to the origins and relive the moments in which he was defining his creative voice. Let me explain - Cey, a new york city native, was born in 1962. By the time he was a teenager in the 70’s he was a prominent graffiti artist developing his style and perfecting his craft in the dangerous circumstances required by an illegal art form. By his late teens / early 20’s he was featured in Style Wars, the legendary 1982 documentary chronicling the emergent graffiti artists, rappers, and B-Boys that were at the center of a growing movement known as hip-hop. He was also selling his graffiti on canvases in art galleries, hanging around with contemporaries like Keith Haring, Jean-Michel Basquiat, and Andy Warhol, while designing merch, logos, billboards, ad campaigns and singles for his friends - hip-hop recording artists such as Run DMC, The Beastie Boys, De La Soul, LL Cool J. As the founding Creative Director of Def Jam Recordings, and subsequently the creative studio, The Drawing Board, for most of the 80’s and 90’s, Cey is responsible for some of the most iconic hip hop album covers of all time: Public Enemy’s Fear of a Black Planet, LL Cool J’s Mama Said Knock you Out, Mary J. Blige’s What’s the 411, The Notorious BIG’s Ready to Die, Beastie Boys’ Hello Nasty, DMX’s Flesh of my Flesh, Blood of my blood…and it goes on and on. In honor of the 50th anniversary of Hip Hop it is my absolute honor to speak with Cey about his life and art - With humility, clarity and exceptional self-awareness, he harnessed his creativity, values, work ethic and enthusiasm to lay the visual groundwork for hip hop as an enduring global creative movement… here’s Cey.
Cey Adams: My name is Cey Adams and I live and work in Brooklyn, New York, and I’m a visual artist. I work in all kinds of mediums and I’ve been an artist my whole life. I literally do not have a memory of wanting to be any other thing. So that’s why I make art.
Amy: (Laughs) Well, and what an illustrious artist career you’ve had. You’ve done it your whole life and I think from the research, you started really early. Can you talk to me, can you take me back to the early 60s and talk to me about your formative years and how you found your creativity and what your childhood was like?
Cey: Well, like I said, I don’t have a memory beyond five or so, but I’ve been an artist from that point on. At Christmas I would get easels and colored markers and things like that. I know that a lot of kids get those things (laughs), but for me that was my calling. I just sort of figured it out really early on. Figuring out how to make a living is another story. But when I was a kid, I just loved to make things and I did that in grade school. I was in local competitions, middle school, the same thing. And that’s it. I did other things like play sports like other kids, but when it comes to making art, that was the thing that gave me the most excitement.
Amy: Where did it come from? Were your siblings also creative? You had two siblings, yeah?
Cey: I had two brothers and two sisters and my brothers had some of the ability, but again, I sort of have to preface it by saying when we were teenagers we all were interested in graffiti. And growing up in New York, that was something that a lot of kids did. Most of them fazed out of it, my brothers did naturally, but I did not and I just linked up with other kids that were interested in graffiti, that were more serious. And those became the folks that helped me build my foundation.
Amy: Okay, so walk me into discovering your own personal style and getting deeply into the graffiti movement?
Cey: Discovering my own personal style is… it’s kind of strange because I love bold signs and graphics and a lot of that informs the work that I do today. [0.05.00] But I’ve loved that since I was a small kid. I can remember sort of studying every aspect of the cereal box, when my siblings and I were eating breakfast. And while for some of them it just extends beyond just the basics of getting through breakfast, for me those characters were really, really important to me. Those were things that spoke to me. And I was consumed with all forms of visual identity, whether it was cartoons on Saturday morning, graphics, if I was in my parents’ car, we were going somewhere for the weekend, I’d be just studying signs, because there was nothing else to do but sit in the back of our minivan and fight with my brothers and sisters. And it just gave me some other thing to focus my energy on.
Amy: And as you were studying these branded characters and graphics, were you kind of deconstructing them in your mind? Were you wondering how they were done or why they were done that way?
Cey: Well, I certainly knew that it was advertising. But I don’t know if I spent that much time thinking about it in that way. It was more like I knew if I could recreate something like that from memory, that I had a special ability. Because comic books and superheroes and all of those things were the easiest way for you to connect with what felt like real art to me at that time. I used to love comic book illustrators, they just had an ability to just sort of translate ideas that made me really excited and that’s what I thought I wanted to do for a really long time.
Amy: And why didn’t you go into comic book illustrating? What was the detour?
Cey: I don’t know if there was a detour. I just didn’t know that it was a profession that I could participate in. I just saw it as a way for me to measure my skill. If I could recreate something that Neil Adams did or Jack Davis did, and those were two of my favorite illustrators, I just knew I had special ability. Because to take something and mirror it exact scale, shape, size, is something that a lot of people cannot do.
Amy: True, and that is a great way also to kind of develop your technique and perfect your craft, by copying the masters essentially.
Cey: Sure.
Amy: But at some point you link up with people who are more serious about graffiti and you also develop a very unique style and expression and you get deeply into the movement and that is a really interesting time, I think, in terms of art, but I think it’s also very interesting expression because it also involves so much peril (laughs), like it’s dangerous.
Cey: Well, it does and you have to understand that for a teenager, danger and excitement are something that you welcome because I come from a big family, so everything that’s going on in my household felt safe. To be able to go into the big city, we lived in the suburbs, so to be able to go to Manhattan was an adventure. To be able to navigate Time Square and forget the idea of going down into the subway tunnels. Pure danger. But it’s a huge level of excitement and the thing about kids, [0.10.00] teenagers in particular, they thrive on that excitement and that adrenalin rush. So being afraid is a part of the experience. If you can navigate through all of that, and you come up in the morning and you’re still alive, that’s the essence of being a teenager. You come home in the morning and you know you’re going to get it. You have to still figure out a way to get ready for school and all of that was very exciting to me compared to just whatever my little life was in my bedroom.
Amy: What age was this that you started going out into the danger?
Cey: Fifteen, 16, certainly 17.
Amy: And I’m kind of curious about what else that whole operation taught you? I mean there’s the art and craft of actually creating the work, but then there’s the tactical, strategery of getting yourself into a position to actually do it, evade the danger and there are lots of things that you’re dealing with in terms of precarious physical positioning, but also cops and rival gangs…
Cey: All of it.
Amy: Yeah.
Cey: All of it. We had to steal our materials, paint markers, all that, I didn’t have any money to buy anything. If I had money for something, it was going towards food. It wasn’t going towards those kinds of things. And so it is very much like being a secret agent or a spy!
Amy: Yeah. (Laughs)
Cey: You have to get into the store, get your materials, get out the door without being noticed, it doesn’t help that there’s a group of us and we sort of had to take turns. We did not look like we were going to go into the local paint store and spend $50 on materials. We looked like kids and we looked like we were up to no good. So to be able to navigate those waters, knowing all of this, was an even bigger deal. And certainly looking back on it, I never felt like I was special, it was just a part of what you had to do. And you would share that information with your peers and you’d meet at these places, like the Writers’ Bench in the Bronx, and we had a couple of places in New York, in Queens, that we would meet and we would exchange ideas or we’d meet at the local pizza shop. And that was where we would exchange stories about how we did things. We would share information. And really help each other get better at figuring out how to do this work in a more productive way.
Amy: Did it feel a little bit like… as you’re describing it, it sounds to me a little bit like these comic book superheroes coming to life, like with your secret hideouts and your covert missions… (Laughs)
Cey: Yeah, but you also have to understand, this was sort of our version of growing up and being an adult. We did all of this under the radar of what was going on with our families and the other adults in the neighborhood. Because they would rat you out and then you had a problem. So if your parents didn’t catch you, the neighbors would catch you. And all of those things were things that we had to be aware of and careful of, while trying to create this visual language that would impress your peers. And some of these people were really, really good. That was what the crew was for, that was why people had these little cliques and crews. They weren’t like drug dealing gangs. I have to make that distinction, because this is the 70s. They were not drug dealing gangs. We were kids, teenagers, and for the purpose of what we’re talking about, we will keep it under 18 because we were really young to even be able to run around and do those things between 15 and 18, is nuts by today's standards.
Amy: It is, it is. (Laughs) That’s one of the things that is so exciting to hear you talk about, because from 15 to 18 or to 20, you were actually sort of in art school of your own making, under the radar, but you did eventually come above ground and be celebrated as a legitimate artist for your graffiti, which started as a sort of illegal way of expressing yourself. But you got noticed, you got recognized and you got celebrated for it.
Cey: But it took a lifetime, and no guarantees. Not to say that going to a university and you know, getting a bunch of degrees is going to bear fruit. Everybody understands what a doctor does. Everybody understands what an attorney does. Everybody understands what a bus driver does, what a pilot does. Nobody understands what an artist does. They really do not. They know what art is, but they don’t know what they do. They don’t know the business of art. And so all of these things, they really have no rules. This is why things are the way that they are. Art is what you tell people it is. It’s not like a chef. If you taste something and it doesn’t taste great, that’s a lousy chef, finished. But with art, nobody gets to decide, except the maker and that’s the thing that’s so beautiful about the craft. But it’s also the thing that’s so scary about the craft, is that you constantly have to keep reinventing yourself, reminding people that, I’m over here, I’m making art, I’m doing my thing. And really hustling. Even after you’re established, because there’s always somebody that is going to reinvent the movement.
Amy: Yes, there is a chapter of your life in which you’re a contemporary of Keith Haring and Jean-Michel Basquiat and you’re rolling with Andy Warhol. What does that feel like to you and is that electric and an adrenalin rush to you but in a different way?
Cey: I know it’s hard to put into context, but you have to imagine, we were all the same age and we were all doing our thing. It looked different. We behaved different, but we were all friends the way people are friends on a sports team.
Amy: Sure, sure.
Cey: And we shared information in the same way I did when I was writing graffiti. And you have to understand that this is the same time period. This is not light years away. This is still the nearly 80s. So if my adolescent graffiti career is in the mid-70s, this is the early 80s and we were all hanging out in the same area, downtown, Manhattan, lower East Side. And it was a band of misfits. And I’m not calling them misfits, I’m just saying, compared to people that took a traditional career or life path, we were doing DIY before it had a name. And I knew that they were exceptional people, but all my friends were exceptional people. They just didn’t crack the code and become serious artists. They went in all these other directions and they lost their way and they might have started a family, went into the military, got wise and went to law school. But these guys were artists and they were hard working, they were a lot of fun to be around. But it’s really hard to sort of omit the success because this is what people know them for now. But if you’re talking about the formative years, the early-early years, they were artists.
Amy: Yeah, that makes sense to me. It’s almost like they were just your friends from the neighborhood. But you’re learning at this time too because you’re just absorbing, like a spong,e and you’re developing your craft and expressing yourself. And I’m kind of wondering how this particular chapter of your life prepared you for the next chapter?
Cey: Well, the other thing I have to say is that you have to imagine that it didn’t feel like chapters. It did not feel like these milestone moments. It’s how do I… x… if I saw somebody get representation, I thought, oh, that person has somebody helping them, that’s what I want to do. I need support. So by the time I find a gallery that is willing to represent me, I’m still not even in my 20s. I’m a teenager. And I come home one day with like [0.25.00] a lot of money that’s three inches thick. And my mother is like, “Where did you get that?” And I said, “I sold my art.” And my mother could not process what that meant, that I sold my art to come home with a bankroll. But what she did understand was when she saw a full page spread of myself and my friends in the daily newspaper. And my full name is there, and my age and she says, “Wow, you guys are famous. People are paying attention to this stuff.” And I said, “Yeah, I know, this is what I’ve been trying to tell you guys for a long time.”
Amy: When they see this in the newspaper, do you feel a little bit more wind underneath you from them? Are they supportive and excited for your future.
Cey: What I remember the most was them sort of understanding that this movement of all of these young people, whether it was music, dance, art, DJ, what have you, is that people were starting to take this stuff seriously. That’s what I remember them realizing, because this is still the early days and DJs weren’t being acknowledge in the local newspaper. But because what we did was visual, I think it was a little bit easier to translate in print form. So those were the things that they noticed. And what I remember the most was that they just thought, oh, maybe I’m going to be okay.
Amy: Okay, so by the time we get to 1983, it seems like there is a whole section of your life that’s beginning to become more professional?
Cey: Well, certainly to me, by the time I turned 20, in my mind I’m a professional artist. I even knew that when I was 19 because a lot of good things happened for me when I was 19. I was doing interviews with NPR; I was on national media outlets doing press. This gallery that was representing us, got us a lot of media attention and I was one of the lucky ones because I was able to look into a camera and be able to express myself beyond what I was doing on canvas. And I’ve always been friendly and easy to talk to and I think when you have a room full of these unruly teen graffiti people, they just gravitate towards the people that get it [0.30.00] done. And so I would get the call to do press more often than some of the others. And also you have to understand, we were outlaws. So a lot of people did not want their face to be shown, they did not want their legal name to be printed and people instantly shied away from any media attention. My goal was to be a professional artist, so I thought this was the next phase of where I was going. This is why I did these other things, even if I didn’t know it. But by the time I’m 19/20/21, I know that and I’m ready to take on the challenge.
Amy: And this gallery that was so pivotal is called Graffiti Above Ground, is that the gallery?
Cey: Yes, that is correct. So when GPI, we called it GPI for short, Graffiti Above Ground. So Graffiti Productions decides that I’m going to be one of their signature artists because I can translate work into multiple styles and it was easy to explain to collectors. And I was user-friendly, all these things. I knew that this was the moment, for me, this was my starting point. And I always wanted to do this, so I jumped in with both feet and I was instantly ready to leave that other life behind, because I knew that that was a means to an end and all you had to do was slip from an elevated platform and your story ends right there. And you have to also take into consideration that adults are paying attention to something that I’m doing that is outside of my parents. And so this woman, Joyce Towbin that ran the gallery along with her business partner, Mel Neulander, saw something in me that nobody else saw. And I thought, I’m going to take this opportunity to try to jumpstart my professional career. And that was how I thought about it.
Amy: Why do you think you were so self-aware at so young?
Cey: I sort of take everything back to opportunity because we had everything we needed in terms of clothing and care and I’m getting my dental work done and all of that. But for me to be seen as an individual was a special thing. I shared a bedroom. So that’s why I’m so self-aware. I did not know what space was. I did not know what privacy was. And so when you get an opportunity to have somebody see you, I’m just soaking it all up. I took my paintings down to this gallery on the subway. I didn’t even have the resources to have them wrapped. Anybody that was on the subway could see [0.35.00] exactly what I was doing. The bright beautiful colors, people saw that. I walked into the gallery and I remember them looking at my work and the first thing they said was, “Is this work available for sale?” And I said yes, I go to hand her this big painting. And she immediately said, “I need five more just like this, we have a workspace.” And I know that when I’m talking about this, it can sound like an adult putting a very young person to work and I have to just tailor my words very carefully because I don’t want to make it sound like it was something like a factory or this art making machine. But it was also a business and they were in the business of selling art, riding this wave, because it could have easily fizzled out, and it did fizzle out. And so I knew that I had to make as much as I could, as fast as I could, because once this press got out into the universe, other people were going to start knocking on their doors. Or they might find somebody that was as user-friendly as me, and I would not allow my ego to make me think I was so special that I had a lane all to myself.
Amy: Wow, enormously wise for such a young artist, but also very agile and ready to take opportunities as they come, and to recognize that it’s a mutually beneficial relationship. What happens next?
Cey: My son was born.
Amy: Oh wow! Congratulations!
Cey: I’m 21 and this is 1984 and my son Eric is born and my girlfriend at the time, we were in the process of starting a family, making a home together. And this is the first time I’m doing something outside of my folks. But now I have the resources to get my own place, I can decorate it the way I want to. My son could have his own crib, like the space, space is a big-big thing when you come from a large family. And so this is truly the beginning of real responsibility. I’m looking at this baby, this tiny little thing in my hand and…
Amy: Oh, oh, can you share that photo with us so I can show our listeners? That’s so great.
Cey: This is not a photo; this is a pillow!
Amy: It’s a print, okay.
Cey: This is a pillow that my son gave me for a birthday and it’s one of my favorite things, this thing is just sitting on my sofa and…
Amy: I love it.
Cey: It’s just a reminder of how long we have been together. And I had to get serious really quickly when that guy came along. It was real responsibility and whatever I thought I knew, I was guaranteed that I needed to know more, because the one thing that everybody knows is that kids have one word that they ask over and over and over again. Do you know what that word is?
Amy: Why?
Cey: Why! Why! I love that you knew that! Why! And I knew that I did not have the answer to all of those whys. [0.40.00] And I thought to myself, man, I really have to learn how to take care of this baby. And I say that keeping in context that my parents are a few towns away. I have the support of my extended family, my brothers and sisters, my aunts and uncles, my girlfriend’s family. But I felt like I was responsible for this little person and I had to figure out how I was going to take care of this baby.
Amy: And, how did you figure that out?
Cey: One day at a time. One day at a time. I read a lot of books; I bought a lot of books. I made a lot of mistakes, but I could always ask my folks how to, how to. But again, you have to remember this is the 80s. People are still smoking inside. I have never been a smoker, ever, at any point in my life, nothing, nothing, nothing. I’ve never tried cigars, cigarettes, drugs/alcohol, none of it. I come from an alcoholic family, so I shied away from that stuff instantly. Amy: In a way that’s maybe an ace up your sleeve.
Cey: Oh, of course, but as a teenager, peer pressure is all around you.
Amy: True.
Cey: So to be shying away and to make it look like something other than fear, and insecurity, because teenagers are horrible. The only thing worse than a teenager is an adolescent. They tease you, they make you feel so bad. They say whatever comes into their head. They don’t edit themselves at all. So imagine people offering you things and you’re saying no, but you still have the self-confidence to say, I know who I am and I don’t need to follow them, doing that. I’m willing to follow them when it comes to doing this graffiti thing, but I’m not taking any drugs and I’m not drinking anything. I’m not doing that. If you all are going that way, I’m going this way. And luckily for me, in 1977, Fleetwood Mac releases Rumours, and one of the biggest songs on that album was Go Your Own Way. Then any time I have a doubt in my mind about a direction or a path and everybody is going that way, if I feel like I need to go the other way, I go my own way.
Amy: Wow! Wow! I love that story and I love the visual image of you being self-assured enough to go your own way in the midst of all of that. So 1984, your son Eric is born, professionally you’re selling work through the gallery and also designing logos, singles t-shirts and merch for musicians, for the burgeoning hip-hop scene, yes?
Cey: Yeah, so I am working with Russell Simmons at the time and he and my buddy Lyor Cohen and Rick Rubin, they have Def Jam up and running and I have to frame this carefully because (laughs) I love these guys and I don’t want people to think that I’m rewriting history. Rick Rubin and Russell Simmons formed Def Jam. Lyor Cohen comes in and he becomes the road manager for Run-DMC, but it felt like a clubhouse that had no division. Rush Artist management is over here, Def Jam Recordings is right here in the same building, different floors, but it was like a clubhouse with no walls. Everybody is there, they’re managing, Run-DMC, Public Enemy, LL Cool J, the Beastie Boys, De La Soul, Slick Rick, EPMD, Eric B. & Rakim, Big Daddy Kane, Stetsasonic, it just went on and on and on. And all of these people needed creative, and I was the only person there, other than my buddy Eric Hayes, who did not work in the office, but he kept his own hours. And he showed me the ropes of how to design a logo, how to do cut and paste graphic design. And he really gave me the chops to be able to navigate how to handle all of that workflow. And a few years later my buddy Steve Carr and I form our own graphic design firm called the Drawing Board. And Def Jam and Rush are some of our biggest clients. And we basically do every single thing that is visual. If there was a graphic need, and believe me, nobody was using that word at the time, they were not using the term ‘designer, art director, creative director,’ those people existed, but they did not exist downtown where we were. I was ‘the art guy,’ the end.
Amy: Okay. (Laughs) Quick technical question, is there anything about the workflow of graffiti that you can overlay or superimpose on the workflow of Def Jam and all the work you were doing?
Cey: Sure. Speed. Speed!
Amy: Yeah. (Laughs)
Cey: This is why I say this, because back then people did not understand boundaries, they did not understand timelines, all they understood was checks and balances in terms of what it is going to cost. What’s the ROI? And that was all they understood. So if you could not explain what I am doing is going to add value to the company, and I mean value that you can hold in your hand, not value that you can measure over 10-15-20 years…
Amy: Not long term brand cache, not like a stack of money you can hold in your hand.
Cey: Instant value. Instant value. Because for them to take somebody out on the road, it was expensive, and so you had to articulate your value in an instant. And I had made it very clear that what I do, nobody else can do. I could paint a tour backdrop, on location, and it was a fraction of what these factories and production companies were charging the record company and the management company and the recording artist. So I could show instant value. I can do this for $500, these guys are charging you $5,000, nothing to think about. Or they’ll say, okay, how much is it going to cost us to have these t-shirts made by the merchandizing company blah blah blah. And then they look at the bottom line and then they say, “Cey can do this so much faster, he understands the language of our artists.” And so those opportunities found their way to me because I was there, I was friends with the bands, I understood their language, I knew how to communicate that look to the street and all of those things were instant shorthand. Granted, I was making, even to be nice, a third of what they were charging, but I had all of those opportunities to myself. And it was a secret society. Nobody knew I was doing this work. I did not care about business cards, I didn’t care about labels, all I cared about was I’m travelling with my friends, first locally, then nationally, then internationally. And I am getting paid, I can send money back home to [0.55.00] feed my son and my girlfriend and my parents. I can get them things and my brothers and sisters. This was an opportunity that I created. I nurtured it, I made it manifest itself into reality. But then I had to nurture it and I had to work… I’m going to say, like a maniac, because nobody was ever off the clock. You get to eat and sleep and all the rest of it, but I’m young, I am high with excitement for this new opportunity, and I get to see the world.
Amy: Yeah.
Cey: Europe, Asia, you name it, and I’m with my friends.
Amy: Let’s talk about those friends, I know you had a really close relationship with the Beastie Boys and traveled with them.
Cey: I still do.
Amy: Yes, you still do!
Cey: I still do!
Amy: Which says something, right, it says something about the nature of the bond that was formed, but also both of your characters, there’s nothing I love more than a really lifelong friendship.
Cey: I was very, very lucky that I found people that cared about each other and they took me with them, and again, this is why I say, I was the right kind of person because I have always been easy to be around and if you find yourself around other like-minded people, you don’t have to be twins, but bright, level-headed, funny, easygoing, able to share information, ideas, things, that’s the kind of person I am and I was lucky enough to meet other people like that in the Beastie Boys, in Run-DMC. And that’s what I was aware of in my 20s. But I’m not thinking about the future, I’m just thinking wow, these guys are bringing me on tour and I get to have these experiences and I get to earn my keep because I can make things and bring ideas to life. I just did not want it to end, I just wanted to keep doing it and really just enjoy the moment because I knew this was not something that anybody that I came up with was doing.
Amy: Yeah, so you said early on that one of your dreams. How is it seeping into your creative process? How is it changing you as a person?
Cey: So I go out on the Licensed to Ill Tour, with the Beastie Boys, we did a little pre-press tour in ’86, then we’d go out on a full-fledged tour in ’87. Then in ’88 we go out on the together forever tour, with Run-DMC and the Beastie Boys. So I was on the road for quite a few years. And I’m certainly getting home to come see my family and my son and all of it, but I’m just saying, we were traveling a lot. And I was going everywhere the bands were going. And we’re flying, we’re on buses, we’re on trains, we’re using every mode of transportation known to man, except being on a boat. (Laughs) We traveled a lot. And so after doing that for a bunch of years, I needed a break, the band needed a break and I came back home and I started thinking, oh, I want to get a space and I want to make work and I want to really start thinking about other ways to communicate visual ideas. And so I got a small studio and I started making art and this is the thing about this story, this is a 40 year span.
Amy: Yes!
Cey: It’s a very long time and I have to put it in context because to try to do a 30 second chronological breakdown, it’s just too difficult. But what I will say is by the time I come off the road and Steve Carr and I start Drawing Board graphic design and we start basically running our design studio and it is a day job. I’m going out on the road, not nearly as often as I was. But now I’m managing people, I’m running a studio, I’m enjoying what I’m doing because I’m stationary. My son is going to school and coming home and when he comes home, after school, he comes and he hangs out in the office until it’s time for dad to go home. So he’s spending his early evenings at the office. And he’s eating dinner with me at the office and he’s hanging out with our friends, which happen to be people like the Beastie Boys and Run-DMC and Public Enemy and LL Cool J. And going into more recent years, Ja Rule and Jay-Z and these were the folks that we worked with. So these were the folks I spent time with. These were the folks my son spent time with. And whenever I had parenting advice, and this is going to sound funny (laughter), but oftentimes I would go to the recording artists. I remember once my son was screwing up in school and his grades started to suffer, but he was so into these recording artists because these were the people we knew. And I remember going to Method Man and I said, “Hey Meth, I need a favor,” and he said, “What do you need?” And I said, “Would you mind talking to Eric, because he’s acting up in school and he worships the ground that everybody in this office walks on.” I said, “Just say something to him, because when I’m talking it goes in one ear and out the other. [1.05.00] But if you say something, he’ll hear you.” And he would go in and he would sit down with my son and that was the kind of thing that I had at my disposal, that I did not really realize how special it was because it’s just another day at the office. And the same thing with DMX, he could get my sons attention in ways that I never could by just introducing him to one of his little Pitbull’s and he’s playing with this puppy and I’m just thinking, wow, this is my life, these are the people that are (laughs) nurturing my son. But it was what it was.
Amy: I’ve heard a lot of stories about hip-hop culture, but I have not heard one like that. It does really sound like a village, you know, and I love that you brought everyone together to help raise each other up.
Cey: But I’m not going to pretend that I invented this, and again, I’m a part of a large group and you have to understand that the office was where everything happened and everything came together. If you had a problem that had to be solved, oftentimes there was somebody in the office that knew somebody that knew somebody. It was just the way it was.
Amy: I can imagine that and I appreciate that you’re very democratic in the way that you describe your participation and your contribution. But on some level I have to believe that you yourself, your personality, were a bit of a catalyst, a sort of through point, a connection that everyone could rely on.
Cey: Sure, sure, and I’m managing a studio and I have a partner, but collectively we were responsible for the careers of so many other creatives and I had to learn how to be a manager. I had to learn how to listen to somebody talk about their feelings. I had to learn how to communicate and I made mistakes. I made mistakes. I made mistakes, but it’s easy to say that now, but when you’re in charge of somebody’s career and they look to you as their boss, it doesn’t matter that you’re the same age. (Laughter) You’re supposed to be able to navigate these waters and keep the train on the tracks and keep everybody happy and be universally democratic. And those were things that I had to learn in real time, while we were making art at a very high level, we had to deal with outside vendors, we had to deal with budgets, we had to deal with contracts, we had to deal with printers. We had to deal with all of these people that I never knew I would have to interact with in the name of making art, to put on an album cover.
Amy: I mean this is trial by fire, it sounds like, and you were an artist, since you were a kid, but this whole like how do I build an organizational structure, how do I manage personalities, how do I know what’s going to be a mistake until it’s happened and I have to fix it, or assume the blame. And then that is, I’m sure, yeah… I can’t even imagine the pressure, but at the same time what do you think is your particular skill at overcoming or… what’s your finesse, I guess.
Cey: You know what it is? I have to wake up in the morning and come to work, and I love what I do. So the goal is to keep going, just keep going. That’s the goal because no matter how much time changes, or how much time passes, there’s always responsibility. And it’s my responsibility to take care of the folks that I work with and it’s something that I take very seriously. And it’s something that I feel how to be able to take very seriously. And I just want to make sure that I am doing the best job that I can do. And that’s the way I think about it. I’m still as excited as I was when I was 20, because I know that there’s so much more for me to do. There’s a lot for me to learn, but I love watching people solve problems and then getting an opportunity to see their work in print form or, you know, digital form. But just this idea that my studio is doing something and I can empower some young person to know that they can do it because I did it. That’s the whole job. That is the whole job. And that’s the space that I live in today. I travel around the country; I lecture and I teach and I basically preach the gospel of hip-hop culture from a visual perspective. And that is an honor. This is the 50th anniversary of hip-hop, it did not have to be this way. It could have went the way of the hula-hoop.
Amy: (Laughs) Right, right.
Cey: We really could have. We really could have. It did not have to happen. Hip-hop did not have to become what it is and to be able to be one of those people that has had a front seat at the table all the time [1.20.00] and to say that I’m still friends with these folks…
Amy: You had a front row seat for sure, but you were also one of the makers. You were one of the key makers of that culture, so…
Cey: Yeah..
Amy: Your hands in it, you were busy and you were working.
Cey: Yeah, all I’m saying is that it was fun. But as long as I’m alive and I feel good and I have the opportunity to continue to make things, I’m going to try to live up to the legacy of my friend Adam Yach and put good energy out into the universe. Remember people like my friend Frosty Freeze from the Rock Steady Crew, and just remind people that we were here, because there’s always a new crop of young people coming up that are embracing this art form and trying to participate. But they don’t always know who their heroes should be. And so I’m here to tell you who they are, Jam-Master Jay, Grandmaster Flash, Run-DMC, EPMD, Slick Rick, Day La Soul, Public Enemy, Queen Latifa, MC Lyte, I’m here to tell you who they are.
Amy: Your special skill is translating the essence of the artist that maybe comes to you in terms of sound and carriage and posture and flow and pacing and you need to translate that into a visual. And you were in a key place to do that because you understood and your translation skills were so tight. Doesn’t that feel like a gift to be able to kind of take what they’re doing and bring it into another language that helps other people understand it?
Cey: It feels like a gift to be able to do it for a long time.
Amy: Okay.
Cey: That feels like a gift. But I don’t allow myself to think about it beyond the task at hand. And to communicate a visual message in a way that appeals to people is what pop art is. And I am a fan of pop art. So I think about a lot of things in a visual sensibility, but I also think that communicating ideas is really important, especially now. And communicating messages that help people think about things that maybe are not on their radar. And that’s why I reference my friends that have dedicated their lives to putting good information out into the universe like my buddy Shepard Fairey. And I just think that as a maker, it’s our job to try to tell the truth and to make people see things that they don’t always see, because they’re busy doing whatever busy work they’re doing or if they’re younger, maybe they’re just interested in having a good time. But it’s our job to make people think and to question things, to question things, because things change so fast and just because it’s in front of you, it doesn’t mean you have to embrace it. And I could just instantly say, just like Fleetwood Mac in 1977, Go Your Own Way. If it means challenging something, just because it is in front of you, it doesn’t mean it is the greatest thing ever. And you might have an idea to create something that is even better. But the first thing you have to do is be excited, have the will to want to take on the task. [1.25.00] But most importantly, don’t be afraid to question it. Just because it’s here.
Amy: I love that. This has been so amazing, thank you so much for sharing your life story and your philosophies and the birth of your child and all of these exciting, really pivotal moments, this has just been amazing, thank you Cey.
Cey: Thank you Amy. It’s so much fun talking to you. Man, I’ve almost forgotten that I have things I have to make. (Laughter) And, it’s the 40th anniversary of Wild Style, and I want to say a big shout-out to my buddy Charlie Ahearn, the film maker, and I’m just so excited that we’re getting to celebrate the anniversaries. A lot of folks have passed on, but we are here to give life to the movement and to remind people that we did this crazy little thing 40-some odd years ago and I’m here to tell people that Dondi White was here, and to remind them that we are no different than you are. The only difference is, we’re a lot older now. And so (laughs) young people take it away.
Amy: (Laughs) That’s beautiful. Thank you so much.
Cey: Thank you Amy, it was a lot of fun, honestly.
Amy: Hey, thanks so much for listening. For a transcript of this episode, and more about Cey, including images of their work, head to cleverpodcast.com. If you like Clever, there are a number of ways you can support us: - share Clever with your friends, leave us a 5 star rating, or a kind review, support our sponsors, or hit the follow or subscribe button in your podcast app so that our new episodes will turn up in your feed. We love to hear from you on LinkedIn, Instagram and Twitter, er X - you can find us @cleverpodcast and you can find me @amydevers. Please stay tuned for upcoming announcements and bonus content. You can subscribe to our newsletter at cleverpodcast.com to make sure you don’t miss anything. Clever is hosted & produced by me, Amy Devers. With editing by Mark Zurawinski, production assistance from Ilana Nevins and Anouchka Stephan and music by El Ten Eleven. Clever is a proud member of the Surround podcast network. Visit surroundpodcasts.com to discover more of the Architecture and Design industry’s premier shows.

Cover of Public Enemy, Fear of A Black Planet

Smithsonian Anthology of Hip Hop and Rap

Clever is produced and hosted by Amy Devers with editing by Mark Zurawinski, production assistance from Ilana Nevins and Anouchka Stephan, and music by El Ten Eleven.