Industrial designer and founding partner of Barber Osgerby, Jay Osgerby, grew up in a small town in England, with his close-knit multi-generational family and the backdrop of his grandparents’ experiences through WWII. His childhood was filled with making things - inspired by his Swiss ancestors’ stories of watch and camera making. His parents were incredibly resourceful, whether it was opening a shop together or repurposing curtains when the local cinema closed. This pioneering spirit is something that Jay has carried with him throughout his career - from his studies at RCA where he met long-time business partner and friend, Ed Barber, to designing the 2012 Olympic Torch, to revolutionizing how people work remotely with Soft Work seating. Now, 25+ years into design, Jay reveals the triumphs and tragedies that lined his path and forged his character with candor, humor, and an unflagging optimism that burns bright and steady like the inextinguishable flame of the Olympic Torch.

Amy Devers: Today I’m talking to Industrial Designer, Jay Osgerby. Jay is ½ of the london-based, internationally recognized, design power duo: Barber Osgerby. Jay met his partner, Edward Barber, while studying Architecture at the Royal College of Art. They became fast friends and started working together straight away. Now, over the course of 25+ years, what started as a scrappy and resourceful startup by a pair of ambitious students, has grown into a family of 3 design studios including Universal, which focuses on Architecture and Interiors, MAP Project Office, a strategy-based industrial design consultancy, and of course their award-winning namesake studio Barber Osgerby, which focuses on art, product and furniture.

Under the banner of Barber Osgerby, they have designed and launched many notable projects including the TipTon chair, and Soft Work seating for Vitra, the On&On chair for Emeco, and even the 2012 Olympic Torch…There are more awards, museum collections and coffee table books than I have time to mention here, but I’ll say this, after having spoken with both of them, their commitment to pushing the boundaries of experimentation and sustainability to create long-lasting, exceptional products, places and experiences,.. Feels deeply genuine. And while It’s a path that has included heartbreaking tragedy as well as exhilarating triumphs…Jay details how he navigated this uncharted territory with heartwarming candor, humor, and an unflagging optimism that will leave you smiling and hopeful. It’s beautiful. Here’s Jay…

Jay Osgerby: I’m Jay Osgerby. I work in London, well actually I work all over the place, but the studio is in London and I’m a designer and I’m not sure there’s really anything else I could do.

Amy: (Laughs) You just got railroaded into it because your skills and talents left you no other options?

Jay: Well, something like that, yeah, I mean I think at school we did this thing where you, at school you had to do this thing where you kind of had to choose a career, based on certain criteria. You had to fill out a form and I think mine came out as a shepherd. My predicted career, so it’s not so different is it?

Amy: No, it’s not and in fact, as we continue to talk maybe we can over contrast, compare and contrast the job of a shepherd with the job of a designer (laughter). Let’s go all the way back to before you discovered that being a shepherd might be in your future, all the way back to the beginning. I really love learning about the formative years because I think it helps me understand the person. Can you tell me about your childhood?

Jay: I grew up in a small town 12 miles west of Oxford, a town called Witney which is relatively small, it was an old market town that had been built up over the years and become really well known for making blankets. But the history of it, I guess, was that it was a… Had a river and it had sheep, oh, there you go, we’re actually back onto the shepherd thing straight away (laughs), there we are. Mum is from the area. Dad was from Yorkshire; both my parents were very young actually when I was born, by today’s standards. And interestingly, I think, my… Ed and I often talk about this because my family managed to fit in an extra generation in the 20th century and so my grandmother was 20 when my mum was born and my mum was 24 when I was born. So it meant that me and my grandparents were sort of almost, by today’s standards, parents age.

They were pretty close to us too, not all of them, but my mom’s side were. So it was like we had a really nice extended family. So growing up really did feel family centric, family centered and I guess looking back, sort of trying to think about some of the influences that came along with that and I think the WWII actually had a… Was a real shadow over our childhood, my childhood, my brother’s childhood really. My grandfather, in fact all my grandparents had been involved in WWII but both my grandparents had been really badly injured in WWII.

And you know, they were still there, they were like in their 40s when I was growing up, as a young child. And those stories and that history, was ever present, really out of place as well, really out of context in this small town, to be thinking about those things. But they were there nonetheless and I think from a really early age history was a really huge part of my life. Maybe it was partly sort of a method of escape, but it was certainly there.

Amy: You were also one of three boys?

Jay: Yeah, that’s right, yeah, we grew up in a small cottage in this sort of small town and I guess the other thing is, a lot of our stories or our family stories were also derived from the fact that a lot of our ancestors had been people who made stuff. So there was this kind of innate [0.05.00] understanding about making, or at least again, these sorts of stories that families tell each other, the stories that go around were, you know, about the Swiss side of our family because we had a Swiss side and they were watch makers and camera makers and my grandfather’s family had been coach makers.

So they used to make handsome cabs and horse drawn carts and that sort of thing. And actually strangely, a lot of this stuff from the family had ended up in our shed. I remember finding paint and stencils and lettering and things and compasses, and all of these tools sort of in boxes in the shed.

Amy: Wow, that’s like finding hidden treasure.

Jay: Yeah, well, it was a really happy byproduct of these narratives; the spoken narratives were then sort of backed up with this archeology of family life that existed down the dust, hidden away. And they were really interested in, apart from us. We grew up in the country, it was often raining and a rainy day in the 1970s really didn’t mean much else, other than trying to make stuff, mess stuff around or break something, you know? It’s like destruction or construction, those were pretty much your options, I think, at that time.

Amy: Both great options.

Jay: Both great options and I was lucky also that my mum was really interested… My dad was a chef, so he wasn’t really around so much because he was either working at lunch time or he wasn’t around in the evening because he was working in the evening. And my mum was, has always been really fascinated by the arts, any type of art form, it didn’t really matter. It was and remains really key to her and so on a rainy day she’d stick us on a bus or take us to Oxford to go and look around the museums. So we’d go to the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford, which is fantastic.

I think it’s one of the first museums in the world and also Oxford University Museum, the Pitt Rivers Museum, where there’s incredible anthropological, just things, objects from civilisations of antiquity and from all around the world and it was amazing. It was like escaping into Narnia. Such a contrast as well to country living, to be able to get into what was then to us a huge city of Oxford, which is actually tiny.

Amy: Where were you in the birth order, were you the oldest or the youngest or middle?

Jay: I’m the oldest, so I was born in 1969, so shortly after the moon landing I arrived and then my brother Daniel was born in 73 and Theo was born in 76, so three of us, all trying to find something to do on a rainy day.

Amy: Pretty close together. Did you feel a kind of leadership or responsibility being the oldest or did you contribute to their delinquency?

Jay: (Laughs) They took care of that for themselves actually, to be honest, pretty effectively. I don’t remember really feeling like that actually until, I suppose until a bit later on when my parents split up and divorced when I was in my early teens. Then I think at that point, yeah, I did, I’m sure it’s common with everybody who goes through it. You do become, I think I did become a bit of a parent figure. I remember feeling a sort of need to try and control things and I don’t know, try and maybe hold things together for my mum and for everybody, I think. Yeah, that was quite a big thing, so yeah, I did. I definitely fulfilled the leader, I don’t know if it was really leading or as much as just trying to keep the wheels on.

Amy: So that was when you were a teenager?

Jay: Yeah, I think I was 14.

Amy: That’s sort of a big shift in the family dynamic. Did you feel like you had to, like you grew up a bit fast at that time?

Jay: I’m not sure if I felt like I had to grow up or it’s interesting isn’t it, in retrospect because you feel that you just take everything in your stride. I’ve never really thought about it that much, but certainly I think I did, I did have to grow up, yeah, I did.

Amy: Did you remain close to both of your parents? Was the dynamic there amicable in such a way or did you have to also kind of experience some real discord.

Jay: Yes and no. I’ve always been very close with my mother, always, and that’s never changed. [0.10.00]. And my dad, I think I was, sadly he died this year -

Amy: I’m sorry to hear that.

Jay: I’m not really sure I ever particularly understood him as a person. There were lots of things I loved about him. He was really good. He was a very cuddly dad. When he was around, he was very present and when he wasn’t around, he was definitely not there.

Amy: Yes, present and also very absent.

Jay: Yeah, he did a really good job of absolute abstinence (laughs), but even then when you’d make the effort to try and see him, he was still, you know, he was, he’d always tell you he loved you and I don’t know, there was a huge warmth from him and he taught me a lot about warmth, I think, in relationships, so that’s an amazing thing. But he sadly was… I think it’s partly a byproduct of being a chef, to be honest. He became a big drinker and socialized a lot with his friends in the pub.

It was a bit like Cheers, he was definitely at the bar (laughs) a lot more than he was at home anyway. We got on really well actually. But it’s just it was a slightly odd relationship where I guess our relationship was more on a level, really, than him ever really being a dad figure, if that makes sense?

Amy: It does. Do you ever look back on your childhood and sort of, I don’t know, grieve the absent part?

Jay: I don’t think… I don’t know actually, that’s a good question. I think yes and no because so much of it… There was some obviously awful things, but there was a lot of it that I guess made me… Made me the person I am, I suppose. I think some of the resilience that came from those years stood me in good stead, I guess, to be independent and to always think independently, I think. But it’s a funny thing, just going back to the thing I was saying before about this kind of WWII thing, which is, I know, a really odd thing to talk about.

But I think that my parents’ generation actually were collateral damage of that war, of WWII and I think my dad’s alcoholism and where he was, was a byproduct of his own father’s PTSD and how he had been as a dad to him. So I think a lot of that stuff carried on. My dad’s dad had been in D-Day, landing with the allies in Normandy and he was a tank commander and his tank was blown up - So he was pretty seriously injured and I just don’t think ever really left him. And my mum’s dad was… He actually landed in Italy with the Americans, the allied invasion of Italy in 1943 and again, he had a rotten time and finished WWII not being able to speak because he was so shell-shocked. So these things, these legacies that I think continue. I don’t know whether it’s like a genetic memory for people. But it was very present.

Amy: I think it’s both. I think the study of epigenetics would say that these kinds of traumas get marked in the DNA and then carried on and then psychologically unprocessed trauma comes out in the way that you parent and it affects the people around you and unprocessed trauma gets handed down until somebody finally processes it.

Jay: Yeah, actually that’s a really good way of putting it. Maybe this is what we’re doing right now, this is it, this is the processing.

Amy: Are you okay with that? I’m here to help -

Jay: Yeah, as long as you promise you don’t make this into a podcast, it would be great (laughter). I guess what I was going to say though is my childhood, when it wasn’t raining, was actually idyllic in some ways because we were very free as kids. We were very free. We lived in the countryside, we were running around, my mum would basically turn us out in the morning and we’d come back for dinner in the evening and we were forever making things, bows and arrows and all sorts of things.

And you know, it was forever inspiring to be able at such a young age to feel like you can influence the world around you through making, even if it’s a camp, or if it’s a fantasy world that you make with your friends in the woods. Those things were our everyday reality, it was very idyllic in that sense. Until, of course, you become a teenager -

Amy: Well, right, teenage years upend everything, but having the ability to develop that kind of creative agency over the material world in your youth [0.15.00] I think really does foster a kind of confidence in your own resilience and your own survival and your own ability to have impact on the world which is tremendous. And I’ve also read and heard you say that your mum was very resourceful.

Jay: She was, she was amazingly resourceful, yeah.

Amy: Yeah, so I’d love to hear about, your impressions of your mum and what she taught you about survival and creativity and -

Jay: Yeah. I think she was very resourceful. So what happened was that, in fact my dad’s job, so going back to childhood a little bit more. My mum saw my dad working these silly hours and not really seeing the family very much as a chef and so they decided to set up a business, a shop. So in 1977, I guess it would have been, my mum and dad decided to set up a health food store right, now this was incredibly pioneering for the time. And so in this very small town that we lived in, we opened a shop and my dad gave up being a chef and the pair of them really went ahead and started this business.

And that was really interesting as a child because to your point about agency, you saw your parents taking control of their life actually and creating something and actually we went around, drove around to antique sales and so on, and auctions and things, and found bits and bobs for the shop, whether it was a set of drawers from an old chemist – sorry, a police car going past outside. I remember them buying an old pharmacy cabinet which had hundreds of drawers in it, with little crystal glass -

Amy: Oh, cool!

Jay: Draw pulls and instead of having the pharmacy stuff in there, my dad re-labelled everything up and it had herbs and spices in it and so on. I don’t know, it was really exciting, this thing about changing. Actually as a child to see your parents doing something entrepreneurial was amazing. Other examples of my mum doing stuff was, I guess, the local cinema closed down and somehow or another my dad, I think it was my dad actually got ahold of the curtains from the cinema screen, so from the theater and brought them home. And my mum then converted -

Amy: Enormous drapey curtains -

Jay: Yeah, really massive.

Amy: Wow.

Jay: They’d probably been in there since 1910 or something, so they must have been… Reeked of cigarette and pipe smoke and so on, probably gross. But she ran them up and made them into curtains for the house. So we had these very dramatic cinema curtains, but that was an example, an example of what life was really like. We were a family of skip, twitches; you can’t walk past a skip. I don’t know if ‘skip’ is what you say in America; you know the things that builders put -

Amy: No, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Jay: Okay, so you know the big things that go on the street that people put, the builders put junk in before they get taken away -

Amy: Oh, a dumpster.

Jay: A dumpster, yeah, so we were a family of dumpster dwellers really -

Amy: Okay got it.

Jay: Ooh, that’s a decent piece of wood or that’s interesting, you know, so that’s how it was. And I guess we were the make do and mend bunch really. We didn’t have really very much money, at all, so we really did create things from nothing and whether it was a business or whether it was a piece of furniture that my dad made, we were forever seemingly anyway, looking back it felt forever, that we were making or constructing or trying to do something like that.

I think I learned two things then really, I think. I suppose one, this idea that you can do something for yourself, that you can actually set up your own thing and it can work and the other thing is, adapting the world around you to make objects, which then suit that notion or that business idea or that venture. And so I suppose as an adult, all of that influence has flown directly into what we do today.

Amy: I think I’ll add a third thing, is that layering of history, that comes from the multi-generations of your grandparents and your parents, and the layering of history that comes from repurposing an apothecary cabinet or cinema curtains into your home, it adds a kind of contextual richness that objects - doesn’t it? [0.20.00]

Jay: It does, it completely does. And it was also a really interesting time to be a child, I think, in the 70s because there was nothing boring about design in that period, of course in Italy there were amazing things happening. In fact there were amazing things happening everywhere and as a child I wasn’t really aware of that, but still my parents were, there was history and art history and design history even to the extent that we had William Morris wallpaper and I remember my mum reupholstering the sofa in William Morris print and there was definitely a look going on. Lots of plants, white walls, dark floors, William Morris stuff, it was kind of, it’s all going on down there. It was not exactly Italy, but I’d settle for something at least.

Amy: (Laughs) So how do we get to the point where you took a test that told you you should be a shepherd, but you actually went to RCA to become an architect? (Laughs)

Jay: Yeah, that’s interesting isn’t it? It’s not so unrelated. What happened for me was, the idyllic childhood, then tinkering around outside was wonderful and then I think I actually got a job. I think it was probably my first job in my great uncle was working or had a news agent store, that sold magazines and stuff at the end of our road. And I had an early morning Sunday job in there and it was at the time when there was a big sort of, a sort of renaissance, I think, in design, publications, but also in music and things like the Face magazine came out, [** 0.21.50] was out, Blueprint magazine came out.

And I guess all of this visual and also the music that was around at that period and even things like MTV starting and this idea of music and design and video suddenly just felt like the bright lights that was drawing me somewhere else. And I managed to persuade my uncle, I think, to [**] the shop, this really crap, small shop, to get Blueprint magazine in. And I knew nobody would buy it (laughter) but he got them in and I then, I remember reading them in my tea break and stuff. And thinking, my god, this is so exciting, I’ve got to get to London, I’ve got to be part of this world, this architecture and design.

It was really that urgency that made me decide to study a foundation course. I always knew I was going to do something in the creative arts. I mean my mum would have not let me really done anything else, but luckily I also wanted to really do it, I knew I was going to stay on at school, I knew I was going to do A-Levels and so I did, I studied art and ceramics, design and economics, strange mix for A-Level, but I did that for A-Level. Kind of handy really in retrospect - and then, yeah, then I went to Oxford Polytechnic, as it was then, it’s now Oxford Brookes University, to study what’s called a Foundation Course, which is thing we do here, for one year between school and university where you dabble in all different sorts of arts and it’s amazing.

Amy: Oh, I’ve heard… I believe it was Edward who talked about this Foundation Course, it sounds amazing, I want to do one every year (laughs).

Jay: Yeah, me too, me too. My daughter has just started doing one in [Cambawa 0.23.37] college. So yeah, I’m really jealous and every day she comes back in, I’m asking what she’s doing and I actually secretly wish I could go in there and have a go myself. But it’s amazing. It’s such an intense period of time where you study fine art, fashion design, photography, ceramics, industrial design. I think I really fell for industrial design actually. I really liked the idea of being able to make things which were useful and actually make a lot of them, so that it could be useful for many people.

And I actually really liked the challenge that came along with engineering as well as I mean I like the idea that it’s beyond sculpture. I would have also been really happy to have studied sculpture or fine art because… Or photography actually because I loved all of them equally. I don’t know what that’s all about, but I’ve always liked trying to solve problems as part of the process. It’s like something that you can get to and be happy about before you continue to the other parts but I think it’s that thing, I don’t know, I always really enjoyed, part of the thing I enjoyed as a child in the tinkering shed, garage part, was the making something from things that already exist and putting them together and seeing what you can create with that. I’m not quite sure what that tells us about the Foundation, but anyway, from a Foundation, I looked at all the universities who offered industrial design and furniture design and I decided to go to Ravensbourne College, which at the time was, and still is actually, one of the best colleges in the UK. I absolutely fell in love with the workshops they had there. I could just see these big machines, these huge lathes and pillar drills and I just thought, Christ, I literally do anything in there, give me three years and I can make anything in there. I’m like, that’s what I want… That’s kind of what I did. So I applied and got in and I loved the place.

Amy: Wow.

Jay: It was great, it was really, really fun. The leaving home bit wasn’t, that wasn’t the fun bit really, but being somewhere new, being surrounded by hundreds of people, kids of the same age who all wanted to do something in that creative world was really inspiring. And being able to get your hands on the machinery was wonderful to make things.

Amy: Oh yeah, and not only that, it’s your job to explore, to experiment and make things, that’s what you’re charged with, while you’re in school. So you find your tribe, you got the machines and your job is to do (laughs)… Go to town. And so this was your undergrad?

Jay: Yeah, so this would have been 1989/1990 I think, I started there. And it was a really exciting time to be in London. A lot of really interesting things happening. So it felt really vibrant. But all of that, I guess, is set against the end of what was that, I guess known at the time as Thatcher’s Britain. So London also felt very poor at this point, to me anyway, coming from the countryside, coming to London. There were so many homeless people. It didn’t feel like everything was going well for everybody, but somehow there was this layer of creativity that burst through and we were all part of that too, which again, was really exciting.

And I’ve made friends with people then who remain friends today and it was such a formative time. And I remember just how difficult it was to know whether you were doing the right thing or the wrong thing. At that age, in your early 20s when you’re so excited about something but you’re also questioning it so much and you know, you do question whether you’re doing… If the work that you’re doing is good… Who knows, it seems so subjective and you’re sort of desperately trying to create your own rules by which to work. So yeah, that was challenging.

Amy: That’s a time when you’re also really filtering everything that you’re learning through your own manner of expression as well and there’s this question of how much ego or non-ego is important. If you erase all of your own personality from the work, then it becomes inhuman, but if you put too much importance on your expression, then it becomes very, either egotistical or sculptural.

Jay: Yeah, it’s true, that’s an interesting one isn’t it, because it depends whether you feel that the work that you’re doing is actually serving others or whether it’s serving yourself. Our generation, being at school then, the biggest and most famous person at the time was obviously Philippe Starck and of course everything he did was imbued with his own personality, it was inescapable. Qe were possibly thinking that was the role model but actually when I was at college I was taught by some really, really great people, really interesting people who were actually the antithesis of that, who were really old-school. [0.30.00] And one guy, he’d worked with Dieter Rams was in the studio and they really brought us back down to earth, I think. And I think really helped ingrain certain values in the studio or in the design group, which kind of became quite a long lasting thing for us all, some of which, whilst I don’t subscribe to all of the principles, I think are fundamental to what our practice is today, I suppose in some ways. But anyway, you don’t really know that when you’re 21 and then all you want to do is really get to the student bar - I actually spent a period of my study in Paris on an exchange, so that was another close as you can get to Philippe Starck at that period, was actually then because he was teaching at this college that I was at in Paris called [** 0.31.00]. And I studied there for, I think was five/six months and that was fascinating. And again, I was super out of my comfort zone because I had, I don’t know, French, a certain level of French.

I thought I spoke French anyway, until I got there and people just looked at me blankly as I asked for a baguette or whatever it was (laughter), I was pretty hopeless. So I had a crash course in French and I think a lesson in personal resilience, I suppose, because it wasn’t easy, it really wasn’t easy. I was on my own there, I was the only one, I was the only student that went to Paris and it was quite tough. But again, really inspiring.

Amy: I’m sure plunking yourself out of your comfort zone like that and managing, not only to get through it, but to thrive through it, also expands your own sense of what you’re capable of. And what kinds of experiences you might pull yourself toward because you’ve got a few under your belt now that were quite challenging, but you made it through.

Jay: Yeah, I think that’s right. And I actually look back, and they always say in terrible times great stories. All of those things are so true. And also in a way I kind of had that sort of classic through history experience of Paris. I lived on the 8th floor of an apartment block [** 0.32.31], which is in the 18th [**] and at the time it was pretty much as rough as you could get in Paris. My flat, classically, I had to move out for two days so they could be fumigated because they had a flea infestation -

Amy: Oh dear!

Jay: So it was just brilliant really, when you think back. I used to walk to college because it was cheaper than getting the metro and then I literally would get a baguette on the way to school and that was… I was kind of living the dream!

Amy: Yeah (laughs).

Jay: In retrospect at the time, it was pretty challenging, but it was good. And I guess then coming back to Ravensbourne, that would have been the end of the second year, I just got my head down for the last nine months of study and it was at that point that you just have to decide what you’re going to do next. So I went to see my tutors and I was doing pretty well actually at this point, things were going quite well at college. And I said, look, what should I do next. I’m thinking of going to the Royal College of Art and my tutor sat me down and said, listen, I don’t think now is the time to go to do furniture at the Royal College.

I didn’t really question why because you don’t do you? And I said, oh, okay, I won’t do that then. He said, so I think you should consider going to Demmis Academy in Milan, which sounded, of course, fantastic. But I had no money, I was completely skint, completely broke, so that just wasn’t an option for me. So I decided to do something completely different and in the holidays from school, from university, I’d been working with a friend back up in Oxford, designing and building restaurants. And I actually loved that process of hands-on making a space from having the keys to the site to getting the coffee machine going in the end and serving coffees.

And I’d loved that excitement of transformation. And so I thought, well, maybe I should study architecture; maybe I should try and get to the RCA to do architecture and interiors. So I went to see the tutor at the RCA, before actually applying, and had a meeting with them, which is incredibly, ballsy I suppose, in retrospect. But it must have been quite a tough decision to do that and nice of them to see me. So they did see me and I had a chat and I said, look, I’ve done furniture and industrial design but I’d really quite like to change to do architecture and interiors.

Like everybody else, had to submit my portfolio of work and unbelievably I actually got a place on the course. [0.35.00] they apparently said that they thought I’d be really an asset for the course because of my attention to detail, those were the words they said, and how wrong they could be (laughter).

Amy: Well -

Jay: That sort of starts the next chapter, I suppose.

Amy: I want to back up and ask a follow-up question - designing and building a restaurant, I’m right there with you on the enjoying the whole transformation from beginning all the way through to, yeah, getting the coffee machine up and running and making that first hot coffee. But did you also connect back to your dad as a chef in any way when you were thinking about the restaurant - And the work space of a chef?

Jay: I don’t know. I tell you one thing that did happen. I mean once we’d finished the place I got… So one summer holiday, I think it was the last one between Ravensbourne and the Royal College, I did actually come back and say, saw my friend and said, look, have you got any projects going this summer because it would be great to work on another project and I’m going to the RCA to study interiors and architecture now because of you. So how about it? And he’s like, no, I’m afraid we’ve finished everything, but if you want to get a couple of shifts in the kitchen you can.

So yeah, I did give that a go and I have to say it was the most horrendous (Laughs), I could never be a chef because what… You’re in there and these orders are coming through It’s like the antithesis of what I do, which is everything I’ve done since college has been sort of self-determination, setting up businesses, growing businesses, designing things, but from… No one is really telling me what to do. But suddenly, when you’re in a kitchen, I mean you’re literally just, order after order after order came in and it’s like, oh my god, how did my dad ever do this, it’s no wonder he took to the beer (laughs). I guess there was that learning.

Amy: Yeah, it’s stressful. I mean I think there is the creativity of developing recipes, but other than that, it’s a very reactional, reactionary conditional kind of situation where you have to be on high alert -

Jay: That’s what it is, yeah, exactly that, it is, it’s an adrenaline thing from start of the shift to the end of the shift and - I’m sure you’ve worked in restaurants, at the end of your shift, the last thing you want to do is go to sleep, you need to have a beer to wind down don’t you? You need that moment just to, you know, to let it all go. So I ended up getting a few shifts in there and that was a reminder why, as well as never being a shepherd, I should also never work in a kitchen (laughter). Yeah.

Amy: So then we started RCA in the architecture department and - the fateful meeting with your friend Edward that has lasted for 25 plus years.

Jay: I think coming back to the whole thing of having brothers, he was one of three as well and I’m pretty sure that our relationship was a fraternal relationship, probably still is in some ways because we both just clicked in that way. And the way that we work, the person-; the way that our personalities are, the way that we tackle things has just, I don’t know, it seemed to be… Seamlessly worked. As we started… I know you’ve spoken to Ed obviously, about this. I mean I guess it’s my responsibility to tell the true story now isn’t it? (Laughter)

Amy: Yes, yes.

Jay: We met, I think it was the first couple of days and we became friends, we became critiques of the course, of course, as you do, because you always know best when you’re at that age.

Amy: Oh yeah, your rebellious streak is getting started, it’s really important to nurture that.

Jay: I think we were both fiercely ambitious for… I think we certainly were. And I think we were both really full of excitement and nerves, and apprehension about what the college would offer. And I think we both felt that we needed more than we were getting out of the course at the time. So I think Ed spent a number of months down in the photography department and I moved down to furniture for some of the time and we were sort of jostling around, trying to find, trying to make it work, get the engine started. What was the thing that was going to really energise us and really make [0.40.00] things happen? And so that’s why we were sort of seeking collaborators and we were working throughout the college in different departments.

And then coincidentally, and by chance, again through… I was working on a Saturday, I think, after college one night a week, in London, there was the bar in South Kensington which at the time was like the place in London where everybody went, the celebrities and people… The movers and shakers of the city, the people who were making the city happen were eating and drinking here, which is always… One of the best bits of advice I think I ever heard was: If you want to get ahead, get a job in the best restaurant in town. Because you just meet those people.

Amy: Oh, that is good advice!

Jay: Super good advice, right? So that actually pretty much happened.

Amy: I worked at a divey pool hall and now I’m thinking, I wasted those years (laughter).

Jay: I’m sure you didn’t. I spent way too long in the wrong kitchen in Oxford, which got me absolutely nowhere, so I was lucky to land on my feet in this gig. And one Saturday I met these two guys who… They stuck out, they were really curious people. They were pretty young, they were in their 20s. They were very flashy.

And I just sort of thought, interesting, I can’t figure them out, they don’t really belong here, so I’ll just go and chat to them. So I was waiting their table and I just struck up a conversation and sort of asked them what they’re up to. And they were looking at a site to do a project on the other side of the road from this restaurant I was working in. And I said, oh, well actually I’m studying, I just gave them a sales pitch. So yeah, that was like my waiter elevator pitch, I’m studying architecture and interiors up the road at the Royal College of Art, if you’d like any help designing your new project, let me know. And they said, yeah, why don’t you bring down your portfolio and we’ll have a meeting. So basically after my shift I ripped off my apron and ran back up to college (laughter). Found Ed and said, Ed, I think we’ve got a project, do you fancy it? And he was like, damn right! (Laughter)

So, that’s kind of how it started, in a way. He and I just winging it with these guys who turned out to be complete gangsters and there’s a whole long story there. So we spent the next year juggling college life and this other side, this sort of dark side of London underworld actually, working with these guys, building things again. I moved in to Ed’s flat, I slept on the floor in his sitting room and we had our drawing boards up at the table and we just worked day and night. We worked so hard to deliver this project.

And it was in that period, that time that we, not only learned our trade, but we learned how to collaborate, not just with manufacturers and builders and clients, but also with one another and that was, in a way, the most important period of my life for learning how to work.

Amy: Oh, I totally believe that because it sounds high stress, but also very adventurous and exciting. And then you have just enough naiveté to get yourself in over your head, which means you have to figure out how to make it work with Ed too. You have to sort out how do we figure out which ideas to elaborate on and to go forward with and how do we figure out who has got strengths and weaknesses and how we sort of work with those to make this all come together. And then also, how do we mend any rifts or fractures or sprains that happen that need to be healed over.

Jay: Exactly yeah. I mean I don’t think… Yeah, it was an incredibly tough period for, I think, both of us. We both, in a way, when the project ended, it almost felt like we came out of the ground rubbing our eyes, like oh, what’s happened? The year has passed (laughter), like moles coming out of the ground. We realized that… We would go out for a beer, I remember, he and I going out for a drink and just sitting there and not really saying anything, because we didn’t have anything to say, we were so exhausted and stunned.

Amy: Stunned.

Jay: Anyway, but it was an amazing thing and that, whilst it was [**] at college because we were juggling both things, we got into trouble at college and pretty much, well, I think we both had exit interviews, so I think they both, they tried to throw us both out because they didn’t really understand what we were doing. [0.45.00] But we survived and we graduated and we also made a lot of good friends at the RCA and I think what I love about the RCA, what I love about art school generally actually, is the fact that you have these people who are specialists in their respective fields, working closely together and you’ve got a sewing machine on one floor, you’ve got a drawing board or I don’t know, or a kiln on the other floor.

Someone is blowing glass, someone is pattern cutting, someone is developing a photo and I just love that sort of crucible of creation that happens there. And I think possibly one of the… That’s another really important thing because I think Ed and I have continued to almost try and replicate those environments as we’ve gone into professional practice and really embracing this idea of multidisciplinary work.

Amy: Yeah, I mean that came through in my interview with Ed, but that also came through right now as you were describing what you loved about RCA. I was like, oh yeah that’s why your life now (laughs) looks like that.

Jay: Yeah, I think so, it’s funny isn’t it? I mean I’m sure you must find the same, where you are, is like -

Amy: Absolutely.

Jay: There’s nothing more exciting than that, kind of getting lost in the corridor and actually coming out into somebody else’s department and thinking, wow, I could do that with this or those moments of excitement are never ever gone. And I suppose they’re all around, they’re all connected with this idea of making or this idea of creation. And for me, more than anything, the creation of an object or a space or less so about digital art. I’m sure it’s an amazing thing, but it’s not really my thing. I like the object or the environment or the thing that you actually hold in your hand or that you can experience, that’s the joy.

Amy: That’s my thing too and I’ve tried to figure out why it is that I love it so much and the thing that I kind of come back to is it’s my, by extension, it’s my way of forming a direct relationship with the person who is in the space or using the thing - It’s a way of reaching out and touching them, without being inappropriate (laughs).

Jay: Yeah, I understand what you mean, that you can -

Amy: It’s a connection.

Jay: It’s actually really interesting. It still takes me by surprise, honestly, if somebody says, I don’t know, I’ve got one of your lamps from Flos, I love it, or my kids love it or it looks great here in the house. And I’m always like, you actually bought my stuff? (Laughter) It’s almost like you get, still now, I still get slightly caught off guard when people have something that Ed and I made, it’s a funny feeling.

Amy: Yeah, I mean they’re a little bit like offspring in a way, or seeds from a tree that sort of go out into the world and -

Jay: They are, aren’t they? And like offspring, you have to make sure they don’t go wrong.

Amy: Yes you do (laughter) -

Jay: Which obviously they occasionally do. No, but generally, yeah, it’s an amazing feeling to do that, anyway.

Amy: I’m thinking 25 years, you founded Barber-Osgerby in 1996 with Edward Barber and 25 years later I’m wondering how the studio has changed? I know you’ve branched out into Universal and Map and we can talk about those, but there have also been, I’m sure, pivotal projects and challenges and moments of expansion and contraction and -

Jay: Yeah, I mean where do I start because there’s a lot to get through and it has -

Amy: Yeah.

Jay: Been amazing, yeah.

Amy: One thing that struck me about your relationship with Ed is that you said it was fraternal and so there’s like a familial energy between you and I’m wondering if… The other people that have formed your studio family, how you and Ed have negotiated those relationships and fostered the growth of the studio family and kept things, I don’t know, fraternal all these years?

Jay: A lot of the early days were, we really relied on people we knew. I mean Ed and I both taught, we’ve both done lots of teaching actually over the years. And so in some ways, actually some of the early people who joined the team [0.50.00], I suppose, were people that we’d met at college or we’d actually taught ourselves. And yeah, so that’s kind of how we staffed up at the beginning, I suppose.

People we knew, people whose work we really liked, people who we could trust, people who were up for joining us as well, let’s not forget. Because we stood for nothing and had nothing at the beginning and apart from, I guess our energy and our desire to do something, something important or something great, or even just to keep going, I suppose. So we were lucky that we had those people.

Amy: So it’s probably worth recapping for our listeners, it was pretty much a scrappy start-up - Neither one of you liked to work for anyone else professionally; you took that job with the gangsters and spiraled it into your own thing (laughs).

Jay: Yeah, kind of, kind of, yeah, we did, we did, we left college, we graduated in the early, mid-90s and there wasn’t a lot of work around.

Jay: London was a little bit quiet and we were fortunate enough to, based on some of the work that we’d done at college, some of the real work, we were actually able to get a few projects here and there, some restaurants and some houses. And yeah, we started designing furniture and products for those projects because we actually wanted to [** 0.51.48] which was to create everything within the space, from the door handle to the chair to all of those things. In those early days we were lucky that we had with us on our team, we had makers, we had architects, we had a couple of people. Talking about fraternal, also had my brother who had just graduated, so he came to work for us relatively early on.

Amy: Which one?

Jay: The little one, Theo, the youngest one. So he worked for us for quite a long time and then the studio grew and yeah, we got to this point actually where people were being quite confused about what we were because we had this sort of hybrid studio of furniture and architecture and interiors and -

Amy: Back then it was so stressed that you specialized that yeah, I’m sure -

Jay: It was really weird. I guess we were already focused on doing good work and what we should do next, but outwardly it was a bit confusing. So in 2001 we decided to break away from the architecture and interiors side of our business, of Barber & Osgerby and we changed the name to University Design Studio. So effectively started a completely new company who were really responsible for, I suppose, those collaborations which meant that the work that we’re doing was no longer authored.

And by that I mean, the work that Barber & Osgerby does is very much a demised vision of how the world should be. When you get into architecture and interiors, very often there’s a very powerful client body or person or brand, who wants to have their own mark on the project, naturally. So what we did is we extended our studio to become a place where we invited collaboration from other people to come in and work with us, work with the team to sort of imbue the project with their own direction too and their own sense of how things should be. So early on Damien Hirst, from the Pharmacy restaurant, we worked with Stella McCartney doing her first stores -

Amy: This is all amazing and from an entrepreneurial perspective or just from a creative perspective, it’s brilliant too because you’re inviting in that creative energy from other really fascinating people and working with them. So you’re allowing a kind of collaboration that might not be as available to you under the Barber & Osgerby heading -

Jay: That’s right, because ultimately we’re control freaks when it comes to our own work. We have a very, very clear vision of how a thing should be and how a thing should be made, how it should feel in your hand or to sit on and it’s very hard to leave that behind unless you create a different space that’s especially designed to enable those collaborations and those cross fertilizations and pollinizations to come to the fore. And that’s kind of what Universal started to do and that’s today, 20 years on, Universal [0.55.00] is about to, [**] are about to publish a book on the last 20 years of Universal.

It feels really amazing to be honest because we’ve done a couple of Barber & Osgerby books, but then for it to be recognized as a significant studio globally is also, quite exciting really.

Amy: How fast did you grow in terms of, personnel?

Jay: Really slowly (laughter).

Amy: Yeah.

Jay: It wasn’t exactly a meteoric rise. In retrospect everything seemed to happen really quickly because we’re looking back through 25 years of time, or 20 years. It’s like all these things, when you look back, things stack up like they’re really next to one another, but of course they’re not. We were probably five/six people for the first couple of years and then I don’t know, by the mid-2000s, I guess we were probably 20 people, something like that. And then Universal went up to 70 people, I think, over the 20 year period.

Amy: How did you manage your energy between all three? What’s your leadership style? It seems like when you have three different, distinct offices under one umbrella, and you participate in all three of them.

Jay: I ought to say a little bit more about Map I suppose, because Map, a bit like Universal, after 2012 when we did the Olympic Torch for London, we anticipated that we’d get a lot of interest from companies who perhaps might want slightly more technical work, maybe something which was more technology based, it was the idea that we could capture some of the work that we’d been doing until that point with some of the Japanese brands, like Panasonic, Sony and those people.

Where again, a little bit like Universal, we knew we needed to create a space to let them in as well, so that they could also influence and be part of our process. So 10 years ago we started Map. So the idea with Map, Map project office was that it would look after the strategic industrial design side. Again, Barber & Osgerby, in a way, has given birth to these two other companies, Universal for architecture and interior design and Map for technology and strategic industrial design.

Amy: Wait a second - That’s three brothers, Barber & Osgerby, University and Map.

Jay: It is.

Amy: Whoa.

Jay: There’s no way we could have a fourth, it just wouldn’t make sense to either of us. (Laughs)

Amy: No, it wouldn’t.

Jay: Yeah, that’s right, you’re right. Hmm. You’re deep!

Amy: (Laughs) I can see through you -

Jay: You can.

Amy: And I love all of it.

Jay: Yeah, it is, well, there you go. So we’ve got these three entities, it’s getting religious now isn’t it? It’s like the Holy Trinity (laughter). Yeah, and the leadership thing is really quite simple and that is something that we’ve always thought of, which is in the sense, always hire people who are better than you at whatever it is you need them to do. And simply Ed and I aren’t, honestly, the type of people who are cut out for… I don’t think anyway, for leading entrepreneurial entities into the horizon, you know? It’s not really our thing.

We’re really good at getting things moving and I think starting things and inspiring, but I think we really rely on others to take the baton and that’s what we’ve done in the past and continue to do today with Universal and Map. So they’re run and led by really brilliant people who do. A much better job than we would have done.

Amy: I’m really happy to hear you say that because you’ve also self-professed to be control freaks when it comes to Barber & Osgerby. It sounds like you have a healthy understanding of where being a control freak is actually productive and where it can be counterproductive.

Jay: To be honest. I don’t think we are control freaks really. (Laughs) I think we are, I don’t know, did you ask Ed that? He might say we were?

Amy: Well, I mean I can understand why you would have to be extremely particular about what’s coming out under [1.00.00] the Barber & Osgerby name, whereas - You’d have to be more collaborative with Universal and Map. But I’m also seeing that your fraternal relationship with each other and being one of three boys, you probably have a comfort level with… sharing ownership.

Jay: I think that’s part of our process, it really is. I think when Barber & Osgerby, it’s not just Ed and I who design things. Whilst we’re always there at the beginning of a project, we rely and enjoy the process of working with our team. That’s why we have them. They’re not just here to expedite projects; they enrich the process and the conversation. And the people who we’ve worked with over the years have been absolutely fundamental to the studio and a lot of the seismic shifts that have happened over the years have been because of those people who have been with us.

Amy: Can you tell me about some of those seismic shifts?

Jay: In terms of critical moments, of the studio for me, obviously I told you that Theo worked for us, my little brother and he suddenly, unfortunately and really very sadly, died, he passed away when we were working. In fact Ed and I were in America at the time -

Amy: Oh my goodness.

Jay: We were at ICFF, doing the Furniture Fair. Ed and I had been commissioned to design the main press area, or the middle of the atrium.

Amy: I remember that, what year was this?

Jay: It was 2005. And yeah, I had a call from home saying that Theo had died and it was… Amazingly Ed was there, of course, and we managed to get on a plane straight away to come home and no one really knew anything about why it had happened. He was only 29 and he was one of the key people in the studio for us, he was our brilliant model maker and very popular in the studio. And so in terms of pivotal moments of people, that was certainly one of them.

Amy: Wow, not only tragic to have his life cut so short, but for it to be so sudden -

Jay: Yeah, it was.

Amy: And mysterious.

Jay: The whole situation was shocking. So when you’re told something like that, I remember being, I remember Ed waving down taxis outside the Javits Center and then going back to the hotel to pick up stuff and then getting to the airport. That journey, the journey from the hotel to JFK literally felt like three weeks. I mean it’s so strange that what happens to your brain when you’re struck with that level of shock. And then we got home and I think it was really strange actually because the whole studio had been put into complete turmoil because I think people had thought maybe it was meningitis or something because it was so sudden.

And so then people were having jabs and I don’t know, I can’t exactly remember because the whole thing was a bit of a blur. But obviously it was devastating for me, personally, and of course, obviously my family and he had a 10 year old daughter and so the whole thing was just absolutely dreadful. [1.05.00] I actually didn’t really know what was going on in the studio, of course, because I was at home, looking after my family.

And then when we went to the… I think a week later or two weeks later, and I hadn’t been back to work since and we had his funeral and I remember, and it was up in Oxfordshire and it was an amazingly hot sunny day and I just remember almost the entire studio… Well, more than the entire studio felt like hundreds of people walking up through this tiny little village to come to see him, see him off, you know? All his friends and yeah, it was amazing.

Amy: Gosh, that’s one of those really bittersweet moments when you get to observe the gravity of how loved he was and also the sorrow of how gone he is.

Jay: Yeah, it was truly shocking. And I think it had a real effect on everybody. I mean obviously the family and me, but the studio too and I felt for a while after, for a long time after actually, that all the people who were around at that time, when it happened, became so close to one another and the whole studio felt very, very close, like the family?

Amy: Yeah, when you grieve together, it does bring you closer together and I think it also serves as a powerful reminder of just how precious and fragile life is and there is a human tendency to want to care for each other, you know, with that empathetic understanding that everybody is hurting, brings out a kind of generosity and caretaking that can galvanize you. Do you feel like it -

Jay: Yeah, I think it did and I think yeah, it had a lot… It had a huge effect on everyone’s relationships. And I think yeah, I don’t know, it was such an amazing, such a big gap left in the studio after he left. He was a really quiet guy. He was six years younger than me and he was very quiet and incredibly talented and I don’t know, he was just one of those people who was really wise in their quietness, if you know what I mean?

Amy: I do. Old soul.

Jay: And yeah, he was brilliant. It was flipping terrible really, but the effect… In a way I think I spent a lot of my early life being incredibly accommodating to lots of… In lots of situations and always flexing and being adaptable to the situation. And I think with Theo’s passing, that it sort of changed things for me because I saw things in a slightly different way, I think.

I think I saw that things had to happen, that there was a real imperative for things to happen, if you believed in them. Because, I guess, that horrible expression, ‘life is too short’ and you never really know what’s around the corner and somehow you… It gave me a determination, I didn’t have before then I think, to make things work. In a way it became the accelerant and the accelerator in our studio to some extent, to make things better. I don’t know whether you ever believe in that thing, that when people have gone, that somehow they’re out there looking out for you and they’re trying to stack fate in the right way for you.

But certainly I think, I’m speaking for Ed, but I’m pretty sure both of us felt that he was out there to some extent, trying to make things work for everybody in our life. And it really did have that effect at work, whether it was Theo pulling strings up there or whether it was just us having this kind of feeling that we really, really had to get on with it and it wasn’t just a hobby, this was something that we really needed to do. And that’s what happened.

Suddenly, it actually felt relatively sudden, things did accelerate. Projects… I mean I don’t want to just relate it to work, but it just seemed that things changed and I don’t know why that was.

Amy: That is really interesting. [1.10.00] It can also be a combination of a lot of things, but also that clarity that you mentioned, whereas before you may have been accommodating because so many versions of the truth were worthy of your attention or being entertained. But then with this newfound clarity or imperative, it was more clear to you which ones deserved action and energy and effort and the other stuff just sort of fell by the wayside. And with that kind of, I think clarity of intention; things do start to feel like they’re falling into place in a way.

Jay: Yeah, I think you’re right. I think there’s something quite interesting about the grief as well, that you never really shake it really does change you permanently, I think. It’s not all bad either. That sort of thing about when you as a human, when you start you could be anything, so you’re a block of stone, for example and then as you go through life things take… You get shaped by your experience, sculpted. And something, when you have something like grief come to you, it’s like suddenly you’re hit with a sledge hammer and a big bit comes off. But it gives you another facet which you didn’t know was there before and it’s through that that you see the world, I think, in a different way. Not necessarily a bad way, but it just gives you another… It’s almost like another perspective.

Amy: That’s a really beautiful way of putting it.

Jay: Yeah, so that was that, I guess.

Amy: And that was 2005 -

Jay: 2005, yeah, that’s right and it was, yeah… I think actually it was another thing that really brought me and Ed closer together as well. I think obviously he was really good friends with Ed as well, as well as being my brother and I think both of us, in our shared grief, I think it was another thing that helped galvanize our partnership, I suppose in some ways. Not that I particularly needed it, because we were already working really well together, but it was just another layer, you know?

Amy: Yeah, well, I mean you really are family now -

Jay: Yeah, there’s no escaping it is there?

Amy: No.

Jay: As hard as we try (laughter), we can’t get away with it.

Amy: So, how is the pandemic for you because in the grief of the loss of your brother, being able to grieve together and care for each other is galvanizing, but the pandemic had a really strange quality to it, where we all had to go deal with it on our own, sort of, or through screens. I guess what I’m wondering is if your team, that feels like family, if you’re able to be family for each other, also through this weird context where you had to be separate?

Jay: The whole thing was just incredible wasn’t it? From the beginning of it, I was definitely like this isn’t going to come to anything type of a person at the beginning. I was the opposite of the people who were waving around going, this is the end of the world, we’ve all got to run and hide. I was like, no, it’s fine. I had a trip booked to San Fran and I was like, I’m getting on that flight, I don’t care. And then come, I think it was like the Thursday and out of the window in Shoreditch we could see people putting their computers into the back of taxis. And we’re like, shit, okay; we’re all going home, you know, this is really closing in. And at that moment you sort of… It almost switches into this, horror film, sort of thing doesn’t it?

Amy: Yeah.

Jay: You know, control your panic, think about what we’re going to do and then yeah, then sure, we all did the same. We took our computers home and we worked from home as best as we could well actually I got Covid pretty much straight away, I forgot about that. So the first thing is, so we got our laptops home, we were sort of home working and then I remember we were pitching for a project actually on the Monday and on Tuesday I felt absolutely terrible. And the next thing I know, I’m sort of in bed really for two weeks, had Covid straight away, right at the beginning, round the same time as Boris actually. I didn’t get it from him, I must say (laughs), I must stress, I was definitely not getting Covid from Boris. I got it from my daughter, I think, who had just come back from a skiing trip,I think they were in Austria. Yeah, so that pretty much, the whole of South East London’s kids came back, well actually most of the kids came back from their half term skiing trip full of Covid and then promptly took out most of the secondary education system in London and all the parents (laughs).

So that was that. And then in terms of the work itself, I think it was surprisingly okay. We got through things and we actually felt that things were going pretty well. I don’t think either of us particularly missed the travelling at the beginning because Ed and I travel an awful lot, like fly somewhere every couple of weeks, if not twice a week sometimes. So we weren’t really missing that and we did feel like we were going through things and in retrospect though, I think we were really good at problem solving and not so good at creating.

Because you know, I think one of the things that we liked the most about the process is having everyone in the room and actually that, when there’s an idea that’s kindled, that’s then floating around in the room and people’s excitement make it happen. Really give birth to it and make it… And nurture it and then it goes to the workshop and then it happens. Someone makes a model or a sketch model and then it comes up and it’s really growing as an idea and -

Amy: It’s sort of like Covid; it spreads like an infection -

Jay: Yeah, a really good version of Covid, exactly that (laughter), it’s like the best type! And we really missed that and throughout the lockdown we really, really pushed as hard as we could to try and get back in, in small groups or come in and rekindle that work. And it worked. We actually managed to keep most of the projects from pre-Covid still happening, still out there. And things are coming out and being launched soon in fact.

Amy: Amy: It sounds like you are navigating the pandemic with aplomb and you’re going to be okay.

Jay: Well, certainly things have definitely; honestly, they feel like they’re back to normal here, in the studio. London has the lowest rates of Covid in the UK at the moment, so it honestly feels back to normal, which is - It’s a relief but it’s also exciting because people are out, there’s energy again, there’s optimism, people are talking about holidays and there was just such a heavy cloud wasn’t there, of doom and gloom and there was, of course, absolutely horrendous, absolutely horrendous. But I’m so happy that there is optimism in the air again and that life is returning to some sort of normal, whether it’s the new normal or whether it’s the same thing as it was, I don’t know. We’re back and it’s very exciting.

Amy: Yes (laughs), enjoy it, savor it, don’t waste a moment of it.

Jay: Yeah.

Amy: So, looking back over the years, I would love for you to describe a couple of projects that you really feel, I don’t know, challenged you, fostered your growth, are emblematic of Barber & Osgerby in really important ways?

Jay: When I look back obviously there are some key projects, but there are also projects which talk more about our process and the way that we see the world. Certainly, I suppose probably the project that we’re best known for is the Olympic torch project, which we did… Well actually we started it in 2010, but it was for the London Games in 2012. And that was an extraordinary experience from start to finish, really, it was extraordinary.

Amy: I mean what an honor to be able to represent your country, in something that’s so symbolic and -

Jay: Yeah, well, they don’t come along every day do they?

Amy: No they don’t (laughs). What was the process like? I have never been involved in designing an Olympic torch, so I have no frame of reference?

Jay: Yeah, it was slightly unusual for us as well actually, to be honest. So what happened was, go right back to, I think it was 1992, I remember watching the, I think it was the French Winter Games and I think Starck had designed the torch. I remember thinking at the time, I think I was even studying in Paris at the time, I would really like to do something like that, imagine how, you know, to be able to represent your country in design would be extraordinary. Anyway, fast forward then, whatever it is, 25 years or something, to 2007 and I think it was 2007 when London was awarded the Games. I remember saying to Ed, I think we were in the back of a taxi at the time [1.25.00], we’ve got to do the torch.

Amy: Wow.

Jay: Yeah, it was literally that conversation. And then we were looking out, we knew it would have to be a competition, we knew they wouldn’t just be able to nominate somebody to do it. So we were then looking at spending the next couple of years looking, with an eye out for the competition to be launched. And in 2010 the London organizing committee did in fact publish a request for people to submit expressions of interest to design the torch. And obviously we were delighted and immediately got our bid together and submitted it along with a thousand other design companies and designers. And I think from what I understand, yeah, there was this process of editing the submissions over a period of weeks -

Amy: This is the Olympics of design.

Jay: Exactly, but without, at this point we’re not really doing anything, we’re not running or even drawing anything, we were just being whittled down in the background without us knowing. So they’d got down from the thousand, down to 50 or so and then we had to put in more information and then that 50 went down to 25 and down to 10 and then finally they chose five designers who could design the Olympic torch. And those five designers were each brought in to the headquarters of the London organizing committee for a day where we were given this thing called an ‘immersion session,’ where they told us about all the things the torch would have to do.

So first of all, a little bit about the history of the Olympic Games, they gave us lots of stuff to read, to find out more about it. They then presented us with this performance criteria, of things it had to do. It had to make 8,000 torches and 2,000 for the Paralympic Games. And these things had to be… To withstand all sorts of weather conditions.

70 mile an hour winds, had to be able to light at sub-zero temperatures. These incredible criteria. It had to be something that was obviously iconic for the Games and carry meaning and narrative since the torch relay itself was going to go on for 70 days, as it ran around the country. We knew we had to imbue the torch with meaning and references so that people could talk about it whilst they were actually on TV. So anyway, we had this kind of immersion day and at the end of it they said, you know, we’d really like you to come back with a design and a manufacturing method statement -

Amy: Oh man!

Jay: Of course we were sort of, yeah, we were like, yeah great, of course -

Amy: Problem solving part of you is lit up right now?

Jay: Yeah, it’s already going right now and we were thinking, this is great, we’re going to have, I don’t know, a couple of months to do this and we’ll come back and then we were sort of, sure, yeah, thank you so much for your time, we’re really excited about the project, when would you like us to come back? And they said, “Friday.”

Amy: [Gasps] What?

Jay: Yeah, it was -

Amy: No!

Jay: I think we had a week, I think it was a week or 10 days or something, it was insane.

Amy: Insane!

Jay: It was insane! But of course, you know, just rewind, this goes right back to the beginning, I suppose, of us working together, Ed and I working together and us saying, of course, to things which were frankly impossible because we didn’t know what else to say. So it was a, of course, and we went back to the studio with the team and didn’t really sleep for the rest of the week. We designed and thought and created and researched and you know, finally on the Thursday night we had something which we really, really believed it was the right thing, the right answer to the project.

And we were on the first shift in the morning to present back to the Olympic committee at 8:00 in the morning on the Friday. So we were the very first and it was extraordinary actually. We really believed in what we’d done. It was one of those ones where… Which happens really infrequently, when you just know you’ve got it.

Amy: I’m so excited (laughs).

Jay: So we went into, I don’t know if we went to bed that night anyway, but we had everything together. We got into the presentation on the Friday morning and everybody was there. The room was packed full of people, even people from government, all the stakeholders were there for the day to see these five designers present their ideas for the torch. And we presented and I think, obviously gave it everything we had left, which wasn’t much I suppose, after a week of all-nighters. But we presented as best we could and then afterwards sort of said thank you and went down, went to the lift, I remember, and the guy who was in charge of the ceremonies [1.30.00] came into the lift because he was going downstairs for a cigarette. And the door closed and he just looked at me and said, “I think we’ve got a torch!”

Amy: (Laughing) Oh my god.

Jay: I was like, oh my god, it was so exciting. He was so pleased. So he was one of 26 people who had really enjoyed it and who liked the project. So we thought, that’s a great start. And (laughs), yeah exactly, and then they kept us hanging on for a couple of weeks really whilst they checked out that we were a design team who had any sort of credibility and could deliver something that we said we could. And we managed to get through that and then we won, we were awarded the project and it was incredible. It was incredible at that point.

Amy: That’s such a good story! (Laughs)

Jay: Yeah, it’s true as well, it was like one of those jump in the air kind of moments because -

Amy: Yeah, I felt it.

Jay: It was like, looking back, it’s impossible to remember what the world was like for us at that time. It was like the Olympics were coming, there was this huge excitement. We were in the middle, in that kind of period of austerity after the financial crisis and there was a good deal of pessimism and negativity around and actually to be able to do something which was going to really, hopefully, bring joy and excitement to people, even if it was just for a few weeks over the summer and to be part of that process was really exciting.

And I guess also, you know, normally we design things that people choose to buy and on this project, designing something which had to represent the Games, the athletes, all the people running in the relay, but something that they didn’t choose, but was given, was an extra complexity, but a really exciting challenge, to design something which had meaning for everyone, not just the design world.

Amy: Right, and it’s not about a commercial prospect - is about a symbolism of yeah, of hope and joy and camaraderie and competition and national, international celebration and intermingling and wow!

Jay: Yeah, yeah, that’s right, but also, of course we were bloody nervous because we were nervous on so many levels. One, that we could genuinely deliver something so complex. Two, that the public would like it, that it would be well received and three, of course, when it actually came to the relay starting, that the thing wouldn’t go out, that it would actually work.

Amy: Did it work? It worked right?

Jay: It worked, yeah, it worked. I mean it did tick all those boxes. We managed to make it, people really liked it and it didn’t go out. I mean it’s like another trinity for you there. The three wonderful trinities of success of a project (laughs). So yeah, it was really fabulous but the final thing of the evening of the opening ceremony, when that torched arrived into the stadium, was such a proud moment for both of us. It’s a feeling that you just don’t get from anything else. To have that, one of your designs centerstage and I don’t know, to be a beacon, a literal beacon, I suppose, of hope and excitement for the entire nation was just wonderful.

Amy: Oh, I’m so thrilled you shared that story and I’m feeling very full-hearted from it and you also sort of painted a contrast between what it’s like to maybe have a splashy product that everybody loves on the glossy pages of a magazine or at a trade show, which is also very great. But when it becomes an icon, like a literal icon beacon as you said, of hope, then people are connecting to it for a different reason.

Jay: But I think that’s an interesting point and one that although not so dramatic, I think, our process is really about, it’s so much more concerned with accommodations change in society or thinking about people, not really as consumers, but as society as a whole and a lot of the work that we do is responding to things that we’ve seen in society. [1.35.00] How people are working differently. How, I don’t know, how people want to buy differently. How the economy should work in the future.

Amy: The values.

Jay: Yeah, yeah, the values, our values, this whole thing about consuming and you know, is this really right? I mean are we in the right job? Should we be doing… And what’s our role in this world where we don’t need anything else.

Amy: Well, so I appreciate that you’re talking about that because I do think that if you aren’t making things, other people will. So it is incumbent upon you to make things in a responsible way and what is that? There is no… We’re defining those values, society is defining them, you’re responding to them, you’re defining your own. Do you have a project that is emblematic of what you’re talking about?

Jay: Well, I mean I do feel like the last couple of things we worked on probably have, in a way, really characterized certain aspects of that. I mean one… Certainly one of them that I don’t know if you know, the project we did with Vitra, it’s called Soft Work and we sort of came to the conclusion that the desk is dead actually, I think that’s probably the best way of starting it. We realized that just around the time of the financial crisis the world work changed because the smart phone was invented for a start.

The smart phone were invented, people were starting to work everywhere. People were no longer tied to a desk and actually because of the recession, a lot of people didn’t have desks at all because they were now part of the freelance economy of these nomadic people trying to work from home who we noticed were not just sitting at home and putting the laundry on and feeding their cat and having another cup of tea. But were actually trying to find quasi or pseudo colleagues in coffee shops and the reception of hotels and so on.

Where people would congregate with laptops, cables sort of criss-crossing the floor, causing all sorts of problems for passers-by. And we realized that actually we needed to design something to accommodate that shift in society, something that cleaned up the cables and actually gave people something decent to sit on. We’d been working with Vitra, the Swiss company, for a number of years and we had this idea and took it to them to say look, partly because we’d observed this way of being, at the Ace Hotel in London, which Universal designed, 2014.

We had seen people having a coffee with people they didn’t know because they needed to feel around other people to work and this kind of clutter of technology and people sitting on sofas which were really cool sofas but were really bad for your back to sit on for eight hours in a row. And we sort of said, we think there’s a project here. We need to design something which is really comfortable, that’s ergonomic, that enables you to work with colleagues, but maybe has power in it so that you don’t have to have your cable trailing all over the floor. And maybe something which could become like an architectural element in the space so that you, as a start-up or you as a business in this kind of post-credit crash world could start something up without needing to do an awful lot of architectural work to the interior because you could just have this system that you could work on.

Amy: Oh nice, you could have the four walls, but then just bring in the furniture to do the rest.

Jay: Exactly, you just need a plug socket, you need one socket, plug it in, off you go, you’ve got 20 people working really comfortably, job done. And the other thing, the thing I’ve always loved about Vitsoe, the shelving system that Dieter Rams designed, I always loved the fact that that system has grown with us and moved with us for over the last 25 years, from a couple of shelves to put books on, to god knows how many rows of it now. And you can pack it up and move it with you and I always liked that kind of perfect utility of adaptability.

And I think with the projects we’d done with Vitra, particularly Soft Work, I think we really embraced that idea of adaptability and also this thing about, I guess coming back to the environmental point, or the sustainability point, how much millwork goes in landfill every year because it’s worn out, it’s knackered. And I think the thing with projects like Soft Work, which is network seating, it comes to pieces, you move it along, you go to your next studio. It doesn’t have any impact on the space at all and it’s ultimately flexible. And like everything that Vitra makes, it lasts forever, so it has an incredibly long lifecycle too.

So that’s one way of tackling the challenges that we have. One way of looking at how society is [1.40.00] giving us designers new problems to think about.

Amy: Yes, through adaptability, ‘re-purposability’ and ageless design, so that -

Jay: Yeah and -

Amy: It lasts forever.

Jay: I always think that if something, our job as designers is to make things which answer problems for people in a really beautiful way that you’re never going to get bored of. That function flawlessly and often over time reveal more about themselves to you. They’re things like, they’re things that you discover later or they’re things that you grow to love and that you never tire of. And I always think that if we can make something that after you’ve finished with it, can be given away or resold or handed down, I think that’s obviously, for me that’s the ultimate sustainable approach to creation of things, right?

Amy: Yes, yes and underneath all of that is the fostering of long term relationships as opposed to these shorter disposable relationships.

Jay: Yeah.

Amy: I also think that when you have these long term relationships in your life, in your objects, in your surroundings, they acquire meaning. They share more memories, they hold more life and they remind you of who you are and therefore your whole life feels more rooted and real and reflected back to you and if it’s all disposable, and you’ve only had it for a short period of time and it’s cheap and you’re going to throw it away, then your whole life also feels disposable and worthless.

Jay: Yeah, I literally couldn’t agree more.I think one of the things that gets talked about a lot is price. I think price is really important, of course, it’s super important. Thinking it through, price is one of the really few things that we have to really it’s one of the things which, I don’t know about you, but when I was a kid, you really had to save up for things, you couldn’t just get them right? You didn’t have that instant gratification of just buying and consuming. It made you really think about things.

Amy: Well, there was a big, long period of anticipation; there was work that you put in to make the money, to save up for it. There was a constant rechecking in, like do I still want it. So by the time you got it, it was now something you were invested in, going to take care of, going to feel pride in.

Jay: So then you had already gone through that process of knowing it was the right thing, whatever the thing was. And I think as a result, you tend to hold onto those things and they do become those things that become meaningful to you over time.

Amy: For sure.

Jay: And they also become the things that you try and repair and fix rather than get another one off and dispose of.

Amy: Yeah and maybe become the things, they become the things that the younger generation discovers and also values because they’ve been around long enough to work their way into the consciousness, into the aesthetic consciousness that we share.

Jay: Yeah, that’s right and they, yeah, they have their own meaning over time and that meaning changes from era to era and if you can make things which have design quality and functional quality and craftsmanship, then they become time travellers themselves, don’t they?

Amy: So one of the projects that I’m really interested in is a chair or a stool On & On for Emeco that is entirely from recycled plastic, correct?

Jay: Yeah, the On & On Chair, I mean Emeco have really been pioneering these types of materials over a number of years and the On & On Chair is made from recyclable PET, well actually it’s recycled in the first place, recycled PET. That’s then endlessly recyclable. We have, I think, one of the first examples in the world really of a chair that has endless life, a little bit like aluminium over the years has got this great reputation for being [1.45.00] endlessly reusable, how a tin can can become a laptop. And it’s not really been the case with plastics until recently and this plastic that Emeco have is able to do that. So the chair itself is fairly simple in the sense that it’s a kind of café chair that can be used inside or outside. It has interchangeable seats and it shouldn’t ever break because it’s been tested to the point where it could destruct but hasn’t. But should you ever want to recycle it, you can and it can become something else. It could become another On & On Chair or it could become any number of other things.

And it’s that type of research that is going into materials at the moment which is actually really exciting. It’s one of the reasons it’s interesting working in design at the moment because the world and the sustainable planet or the sustainability of the projects we’re working on is being enriched by this research and development across all sorts of different projects. So Emeco is a really, really good example of that and the chair, I hope will be successful because it is genuinely ecological, and made in the USA.

Amy: I do find it kind of an exciting, I mean that’s an optimistic way to look at it, but it’s exciting in sustainability this research that’s happening in materials because it’s focusing so much more on generative processes versus extractive.

Jay: So we’re trying to make the most of what we have.

Amy: Right, so all this plastic that’s already been manufactured doesn’t require taking anything more from the earth, but taking what we already have and repurposing it into a super, as you say, enduring material that is also ultimately recyclable forever. So -

Jay: And I think plastic is also, plastic is not great for some things. In terms of the planet it’s absolutely awful to use plastic for single use, throwaway, small component things. It’s not great, it’s rotten, but actually when you take those things, the yogurt cartons or Coke bottles, and you can make them into a chair, then I think plastic starts to justify its existence because it becomes something that’s super useful, that can last for many, many years. So it doesn’t have the same burden on the planet as disposable plastic does.

So I think using our business of creating objects that last a long time, that are useful, to kind of scoop up that waste, those products that are no longer needed and to reuse the plastic rather than burning it or putting it in the ground, are fantastic. And actually Vitra have recently done a version our Tip Ton chair that we designed in 2011. Vitra have developed the Tip Ton chair which has exactly the same functionality and performance as normal plastic, but they’re making it out of recycled plastic from this thing in Germany.

In Germany they’ve been recycling for decades and they’re extremely good at it and they have this thing, this system called the Yellow Bag, which is a reusable waste program where things like yogurt pots go into. So it’s where polypropylene is recycled, and they’re so good at it that actually Vitra have managed to take this waste from domestic waste, and actually mold it and pretty much directly into Tip Ton chair. So it’s called the Tip Ton RE and it really is extraordinary because it’s made of 100% recycled polypropylene which in itself is a 100% recyclable.

So a little bit like the On & On Chair, it’s the same concept of scooping up these small pieces of polluting plastic and condensing them and compressing them and remolding them into things which can have an incredibly long life.

Amy: That’s got to sound good.

Jay: That’s great, it’s really good and it’s quite funny actually, on the Tip Ton RE, when you look closely it’s kind of speckled and occasionally you can see like a tiny little bit of lettering from a yoghurt pot -

Amy: Oh, that’s so fun!

Jay: So yeah, it’s like archaeology, it’s like archaeology in your own furniture.

Amy: (Laughs)

Jay: And so it’s fantastic and so it’s really great to be working at that sort of vanguard of that.

Amy: This has been really fascinating and I want to thank you for sharing your life and your work and your purpose with me [1.50.00], I feel really close to you Jay.

Jay: Oh, that’s great, me too and it’s been, yeah, I think we could carry on forever really, there’s so much to say. Luckily Ed’s already done the heavy lifting (laughter) so probably your listeners are thinking, oh, do I really want to know anything more about Jay Osgerby or… I’m just going to definitely delete my subscription.

Amy: (Laughs) Stop it! No, this was really wonderful.

Jay: As a studio we’re going to continue to do work that you know, hopefully redefines the boundaries of design and I hope that we can come back and have another conversation in maybe a couple of years’ time when we’ve done some new work which is really exciting to talk about and equally as challenging as some of the things we’ve done in the past.

Amy: Absolutely, you have a lifetime membership; I’ll talk to you whenever you’re ready!

Jay: Fantastic, thank you.

Amy: Thank you for listening!To see images of Jay’s work and read the show notes, click the link in the details of this episode on your podcast app, or go to cleverpodcast.com where you can also sign up for our newsletter, subscribe to Clever on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you would please do us a favor and rate and review - it really does help a lot! We also love chatting with you on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook - you can find us @cleverpodcast. You can find me, @amydevers. Clever is produced by 2VDE Media with editing by Rich Stroffolino, production assistance from Ilana Nevins and Anouchka Stephan and music by El Ten Eleven. Clever is part of the Airwave Media podcast network. Visit airwavemedia.com to discover more great shows. They curate the best of them, so you don’t have to. Clever is proudly distributed by Design Milk.

What is your earliest memory?

1971, running, bare-foot, to my parents bedroom at first light on my second birthday, only to stand on a thumb tack, and the consequent trauma of my mother pulling it out of my foot.

Jay Osgerby’s maternal Grandmother, Betty Hickman, Nurse with the St Johns Ambulance and Ronald Hickman, British Infantry Private in the Second World War and involved in the 1943 allied invasion of Italy with the American Fifth Army photographed during the Second World War.
Click below to listen to Ronald Hickman’s interview which is held at the Imperial War Museum, London: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80022135

Jay Osgerby’s paternal Grandmother, Vera Osgerby (left), Sergeant, Auxiliary Territorial Service and Grandfather, Reginald Osgerby (right), Sergeant and Tank Commander in the Normandy Landings on D-Day, photographed in 1943, during the Second World War.
Click below to listen to Reginald Osgerby’s interview which is held at the Imperial War Museum, London: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80017411

How do you feel about democratic design?

The phrase ‘democratic design’ is often heard today coming from companies engaged in a race to the lowest price often to the detriment of the product, and of course the planet.

End price shouldn’t be the principal objective, but rather quality and longevity. Design should be concerned with ecology, lasting beauty and craftsmanship - an object has the chance then to have many owners, being owned for a long time and then resold or passed down. That is the new democracy.

What’s the best advice that you’ve ever gotten?

"Measure twice, cut once "

This has become a mantra for me over the years, to counteract my urgency to act.

**AXOR One - Taps, showers and accessories sketches, 2021 / © Barber Osgerby Studio**

How do you record your ideas?

I always have a sketchbook with me. Each one contains an overlapping and somewhat chaotic collection of drawn ideas, random notes, reminders, patterns and numbers.

What’s your current favorite tool or material to work with?

Truthfully, anything that draws a line - I’m always the one asking if anyone's got a pen in our studio. Our process is so collaborative and mobile that I somehow always leave my pen or pencil somewhere or with someone. Drawing for me is talking, rather than the silence of art.

What book is on your nightstand?

The Heart's Invisible Furies by John Boyne - an astonishing book. I would recommend everyone reads it to reconnect with their humanity.

Why is authenticity in design important?

My job is to create beautifully useful things in response to new questions posed by need, or change. I trust that the work is legitimized through innovation and thought, then authenticity is hopefully the result.

Favorite restaurant in your city?

Sparrow Restaurant in Lewisham, London - unlikely location, incredible food.

**Untitled, One by One exhibition, Josée Bienvenu Gallery, New York, 2018 / © Guillaume Ziccarelli and © Carmen Gray, Courtesy of the artist and Josée Bienvenu Gallery**

Signals Exhibition at Galerie kreo, Signal C1, London and Paris, 2022, also pictured; Hakone Bench, 2017 / © Alexandra de Cossette Courtesy Galerie kreo

What might we find on your desk right now?

A pile of Venini glass samples for a Galerie kreo show, old sketchbooks, too much junk really. I can't help but to collect things. One day I’ll clear up.

Who do you look up to and why?

Most people, I’m not exactly tall.

What’s your favorite project that you’ve done and why?

I guess the London 2012 Olympic torch. It was the perfect mixture of adrenaline, design, engineering and pride - plus it’s the only way you can represent your country in design.

**Iris 1300, dimensions 1300 x 1300 x 400mm, Established & Sons, 2008 / © Peer Lindgreen / © Barber Osgerby Studio**

What are the last five songs you listened to?

This is a really different question to what’s your favorite piece of music, so I just checked the history. Like my sketchbook it's a wholly unnatural combination of stuff in one place.

Eden - Hania Rani
The Coffee Cola Song - Francis Bebey
Mask Off - Future
10 - Misled Children
Go! - Public Service Broadcasting.
Chequeless Reckless - Fontaines D.C.

Where can our listeners find you on the web and on social media?

Instagram: @barberosgerby

Website: barberosgerby.com

*In memoriam: Jay’s brother, Theo Osgerby (3 January 1976 - 17 May 2005). Here making a model in the Barber Osgerby Studio, 2003*

Clever is produced and hosted by Amy Devers with editing by Rich Stroffolino, production assistance from Ilana Nevins and Anouchka Stephan, and music by El Ten Eleven.

Clever is produced by 2VDE Media. Thanks to Rich Stroffolino for editing this episode.
Production assistance from Ilana Nevins and music by El Ten Eleven—hear more on Bandcamp.
Shoutout to Jenny Rask for designing the Clever logo.

Clever is a proud member of the Airwave Media podcast network. Visit airwavemedia.com to discover more great shows.

Keep Listening

Featured

Ep. 219: Federico Negro on Making Tools to Empower and Scale Sustainable Design

Founder and CEO of Canoa, Federico Negro, was born in Uruguay during a time of political turmoil and lived in four countries by age 14. As a teenager in Chicago, he used music as a means of learning English, and during college became fascinated by forensic architecture, which informed his fixation with “how we build with what we build.” An Architect, designer, toolmaker, and entrepreneur, his first company, CASE, was acquired by WeWork. From there he served as the Global Head of Design for Wework during the company’s rapid expansion, and witnessed first-hand the pain points and environmental challenges that could be mitigated with better tools. So in 2019, he founded Canoa, an AI-driven, collaborative software aimed at revolutionizing the interior design and furniture industries by addressing environmental issues and becoming a tool to help us build a better future.

Ep. 218: The Exquisite Love, Magic and Maximalism of Londubh Studio

Custom surface artists Lisa Donohoe and Brynn Gelbard met and fell in love in the queer underbelly scene of San Francisco in 2002, a time before bi-national same-sex marriage was legal. Self-proclaimed party animals, their diverse community was built on love, curiosity and celebrating each other's differences. In an evolution that was equal parts organic maturity and cosmic intervention, Brynn and Lisa moved to Los Angeles and founded Londubh Studio, specializing in elaborate and maximalist hand-applied surface designs. Now the duo, oft considered the design world’s secret weapon, are translating their wildness, love, magic, and the sacred, through exquisite artistry and pristine craft, into visual celebrations that vibrate with love and emanate joy. Turns out these former revelers are still going full-blast on life.

Ep. 217: Design Researcher Amanda Schneider on the Art of Contextualizing the Data

Founder and President of ThinkLab, Amanda Schneider, grew up outside of Chicago, inspired by a blend of engineering and design. Now a self-described “designer by degree, journalist by accident, and researcher by choice” at the helm of ThinkLab, she examines the ecosystem of the design world, unearthing and synthesizing the social and cultural shifts and drivers that impact the interiors industry. Together with her team, she offers insights and context that can empower better decision-making while also bridging the communication gap between creatives and the business sector. A keynote speaker (catch her recent TEDx talk) and the host of the podcast Design Nerds Anonymous, Amanda shares her wisdom on topics like communication strategies, storytelling, and the future of work.

Ep. 216: Clever Extra - Interior Designer Kerrie Kelly on Uniting Beauty and Function

Interior designer and lifestyle expert Kerrie Kelly is known for her distinctive California-inspired design philosophy. She got her start at Ralph Lauren Home and then moved to Del Webb Corporation where she was a boots-on-the-ground high-volume designer of homes, before founding her multi-faceted design studio, Kerrie Kelly Design Lab, in 1995. A graduate of both design and business school, she blends both of these skill sets in her work as an interior designer, trendspotter, and brand partner. She’s driven by a commitment to bringing thoughtful design into everyday life, which for Kerrie means blending beauty with functionality and translating that through a palette of luxurious and organic materiality.

Ep. 215: Kinfolk’s Idris Brewster Uses AR to Empower Collective Memory Building

Artist, creative technologist, and educator, Idris Brewster grew up in Brooklyn, being filmed for a documentary about his education as a black student at a prestigious, primarily white, school. His coming-of-age, only partially caught on camera, included a lot of basketball and hands-on artistic development. A grant awarded in college gave him early access to VR technology which opened a path to combining all of his talents and interests and expressing them through new media. Now, as co-founder and Executive Director of Kinfolk Foundation, he’s harnessing augmented reality, location-based technology, and community to engage in placing digital monuments in public spaces, memory building, and foregrounding the Black, Brown and Queer histories that have been intentionally silenced.

Ep. 163: Designer Jay Osgerby Shines a Light on Loss, Legacy, and Longevity

Keep Listening

Hear every episode with one click.

Resources

Listen

Ep. 163: Designer Jay Osgerby Shines a Light on Loss, Legacy, and Longevity

Keep Listening

Ep. 164: ManvsMachine's Mike Alderson on Crafting Eye Candy

Ep. 162: Building a Colorful Second Act with Illustrator Yuko Shimizu

Hear every episode with one click.

Resources

Listen